nice article on the fly by wire ... makes one think whether the ultimate decision should rest with computers or the pilot
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/boe202.shtml
Fly by wire ..
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Alistairbastian
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Fly by wire ..
hey guys read
nice article on the fly by wire ... makes one think whether the ultimate decision should rest with computers or the pilot
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/boe202.shtml
nice article on the fly by wire ... makes one think whether the ultimate decision should rest with computers or the pilot
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/boe202.shtml
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moons
Thank god there are airlines like Southwest that REQUIRE that the pilot hand-land the airplane every time. No CAT III approaches though... 
The pilot's role will deminish to doing nothing but making calls to ATC. I hate computers, I hope that this will not happen in my lifetime.
The pilot's role will deminish to doing nothing but making calls to ATC. I hate computers, I hope that this will not happen in my lifetime. "What's this button do?? I don't know, push it and find out................."
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Alistairbastian
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Advisor
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Source : Automated Planes Raising Concerns, by Carl Levin
Airlines are starting to fly a new generation of highly automated jets, raising concerns among safety researchers that pilots will rely too much on the technology and will lose or never learn the sharp skills and reflexes needed in
emergencies.
The first scientific study to compare pilots' performance in highly automated and traditional cockpits began Tuesday In Atlanta. Researchers at the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration
said the results would help them improve training for pilots who fly the advanced planes and suggest ways to better design future craft.
The most advanced planes, like the Airbus A320 and Boeing's 757 and 767 models,
require little of the hands-on flying skill that older models need. For years, planes have had autopilots to keep level and make simple turns, but with the newest equipment pilots can push a few buttons and lean back while the plane
flies to its destination and Iands on a predetermined runway. Virtually every
calculation is made by computer.
More Control to Machines
"We're taking more and more of those functions out of human control and giving them to the machines," said Dr. Clay Foushee, the chief F.A.A. scientist for human performance Issues. "The question becomes whether humans will really respond when something goes wrong."
Aviation experts cite the performance of the pilots of two disabled United
Airlines jets in recent months as examples of how basic flying skills and years
of experience can make a big difference in emergencies.
After a disintegrating tail engine crippled the hydraulic system on a DC-10 on
July 19, Capt. Altred C. Haynes, a 33-year United veteran, and his crew devised
a way to crash-land the plane in Sioux City, lowa. Of the 296 people aboard,
185 survived.
Capt. David M. Cronin, also a United pilot for three decades, cited his crew's extensive experience in the safe landing of his Boeing 747 in Honolulu in February after a cargo door and large section of fuselage blew off the plane,
knocking out two of its four engines and killing nine passengers:
Airlines See New Planes as Safer
"Here's two examples of unforeseen Qand in fact some engineers would have said
impossibleQtypes of failures that were dealt with creatively by human operators," said Bob Buley, a flight standards manager at Northwest Airlines. "If we have human operators subordinated to technology then we're going to lose that creativity. I don't have computers that will do that; I just don't."
Airlines like the equipment because it keeps a plane closer to its course than
a pilot can, cutting costs and increasing safety in some operations.
The head of pilot training for United William H. Traub, said that the carrier had been flying highly automated Boeing 767's since 1982 and that he knew of no deviations greater than 300 feet from assigned altitudes. "In that respect it's
a safer system,".
Leading the parade of new technology is the A320, a jetliner made by the European consortium Airbus Industrie, which began passenger service in this country. Northwest is buying 100 of the jets and has started flying
the first two. Braniff, with 50 on order and 50 on option, plans to put its first A320 into service.
In addition to the increased use of automatic cockpit controls, the A320
eliminates virtually all direct mechanicaI or hydraulic Iinks to movable surfaces on the wings and tail that direct a plane's speed and angle of flight. Five computers translate a pilot's actions into electronic commands that move
surfaces, changing the plane's speed and direction.
Computers can control the speed and direction of flight more accurately than any human pilot but even aviators who defend the A32O say the extensive use of automation raises questions about a pilot's ability to respond quickly in an
emergency.
Looking for 'Ideal Balance'
"In my perfect world we marry the advantages or automation and the creative attributes or human operators," said Mr. Buley of Northwest. "The A320 is a quantum leap ahead. What I'm looking for is the ideal balance, and I'm not sure we've reached that with that airplane."
The equipment on the new planes is more reliable than before, and it can relieve pilots of routine duties that might distract them from more important tasks. For example, in the Boeing 767, computers automatically calculate and adjust the descent speed to use the least fuel for the distance traveled, one
pilot noted. In the older Boeing 727, pilots go through "constant mental gymnastics" to make the calculation themselves, the pilot said.
But just as some educators argue that a pupil with a calculator might not learn
basic principles of mathematics, aviation researchers say pilots who depend too
much on computers might not be as quick to determine the correct descent speed
on his own if the computer fails as would the 727 pilot who does this on every flight.
Cockpit crew complacency and boredom are another issue, and these problems are
highlighted by a separate airline industry study of automation and pilot performance. The F.A.A. and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration are building on the airline study and the Atlanta research to develop a national program to improve the ways technology is used in aviation.
Other concerns listed by the airline group, Ied by Mr. Buley of Northwest, include the problems pilots face when automated equipment fails and the deterioration of basic flying skills.
Pilots Share Concern
Pilots themselves share these concerns, according to a recent space agency study of 200 pilots who have been flying the Boeing 757 for airlines. About half agreed with the statement "I am concerned about a possible loss of my fIying skills with too much automation." Even so, nearly 90 percent of the
pilots agreed that the new instruments were "a big step forward."
Many of these questions will come up again Sept. 18-19 when Dr. Foushee and representatives from manufacturers and airlines meet to discuss the national
plan for improving the way people use technology in aviation.
Adding to the urgency of the research is the current boom in pilot hiring. Over the next decade a new generation of pilots will be climbing into cockpits, and virtually all their airline training will come in the new jets.
"What happens when the automation fails?" asked Earl L. Wiener of the University of Miami, an expert in pilot performance who is directing the Atlanta study. "A collision is coming between very inexperienced pilots and
very sophisticated aircraft."
To be sure, today's pilots have the advantage of extensive training on advanced
cockpit simulators, which duplicate every movement a plane would make. A pilot
in a simulator can practice fIying after losing various computer and control systems.
"There have been many simulator advances that hopefully will give pilots training advantages that an older generation of pilots didn't have," Dr. Foushee said.
Still, while simulator training could help for some kinds of emergencies, others, like the loss of the hydraulic system in the DC-10 in lowa, are considered so remote that pilots do not train for them on simulators.
Besides examining how well pilots respond in emergencies, researchers hope to examine any differences in the ways pilots work with one another in automated and conventional cockpits, said Dr. Everett Palmer of NASA's Ames Research Center, which is financing the study led by Dr. Wiener.
Airlines are starting to fly a new generation of highly automated jets, raising concerns among safety researchers that pilots will rely too much on the technology and will lose or never learn the sharp skills and reflexes needed in
emergencies.
The first scientific study to compare pilots' performance in highly automated and traditional cockpits began Tuesday In Atlanta. Researchers at the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration
said the results would help them improve training for pilots who fly the advanced planes and suggest ways to better design future craft.
The most advanced planes, like the Airbus A320 and Boeing's 757 and 767 models,
require little of the hands-on flying skill that older models need. For years, planes have had autopilots to keep level and make simple turns, but with the newest equipment pilots can push a few buttons and lean back while the plane
flies to its destination and Iands on a predetermined runway. Virtually every
calculation is made by computer.
More Control to Machines
"We're taking more and more of those functions out of human control and giving them to the machines," said Dr. Clay Foushee, the chief F.A.A. scientist for human performance Issues. "The question becomes whether humans will really respond when something goes wrong."
Aviation experts cite the performance of the pilots of two disabled United
Airlines jets in recent months as examples of how basic flying skills and years
of experience can make a big difference in emergencies.
After a disintegrating tail engine crippled the hydraulic system on a DC-10 on
July 19, Capt. Altred C. Haynes, a 33-year United veteran, and his crew devised
a way to crash-land the plane in Sioux City, lowa. Of the 296 people aboard,
185 survived.
Capt. David M. Cronin, also a United pilot for three decades, cited his crew's extensive experience in the safe landing of his Boeing 747 in Honolulu in February after a cargo door and large section of fuselage blew off the plane,
knocking out two of its four engines and killing nine passengers:
Airlines See New Planes as Safer
"Here's two examples of unforeseen Qand in fact some engineers would have said
impossibleQtypes of failures that were dealt with creatively by human operators," said Bob Buley, a flight standards manager at Northwest Airlines. "If we have human operators subordinated to technology then we're going to lose that creativity. I don't have computers that will do that; I just don't."
Airlines like the equipment because it keeps a plane closer to its course than
a pilot can, cutting costs and increasing safety in some operations.
The head of pilot training for United William H. Traub, said that the carrier had been flying highly automated Boeing 767's since 1982 and that he knew of no deviations greater than 300 feet from assigned altitudes. "In that respect it's
a safer system,".
Leading the parade of new technology is the A320, a jetliner made by the European consortium Airbus Industrie, which began passenger service in this country. Northwest is buying 100 of the jets and has started flying
the first two. Braniff, with 50 on order and 50 on option, plans to put its first A320 into service.
In addition to the increased use of automatic cockpit controls, the A320
eliminates virtually all direct mechanicaI or hydraulic Iinks to movable surfaces on the wings and tail that direct a plane's speed and angle of flight. Five computers translate a pilot's actions into electronic commands that move
surfaces, changing the plane's speed and direction.
Computers can control the speed and direction of flight more accurately than any human pilot but even aviators who defend the A32O say the extensive use of automation raises questions about a pilot's ability to respond quickly in an
emergency.
Looking for 'Ideal Balance'
"In my perfect world we marry the advantages or automation and the creative attributes or human operators," said Mr. Buley of Northwest. "The A320 is a quantum leap ahead. What I'm looking for is the ideal balance, and I'm not sure we've reached that with that airplane."
The equipment on the new planes is more reliable than before, and it can relieve pilots of routine duties that might distract them from more important tasks. For example, in the Boeing 767, computers automatically calculate and adjust the descent speed to use the least fuel for the distance traveled, one
pilot noted. In the older Boeing 727, pilots go through "constant mental gymnastics" to make the calculation themselves, the pilot said.
But just as some educators argue that a pupil with a calculator might not learn
basic principles of mathematics, aviation researchers say pilots who depend too
much on computers might not be as quick to determine the correct descent speed
on his own if the computer fails as would the 727 pilot who does this on every flight.
Cockpit crew complacency and boredom are another issue, and these problems are
highlighted by a separate airline industry study of automation and pilot performance. The F.A.A. and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration are building on the airline study and the Atlanta research to develop a national program to improve the ways technology is used in aviation.
Other concerns listed by the airline group, Ied by Mr. Buley of Northwest, include the problems pilots face when automated equipment fails and the deterioration of basic flying skills.
Pilots Share Concern
Pilots themselves share these concerns, according to a recent space agency study of 200 pilots who have been flying the Boeing 757 for airlines. About half agreed with the statement "I am concerned about a possible loss of my fIying skills with too much automation." Even so, nearly 90 percent of the
pilots agreed that the new instruments were "a big step forward."
Many of these questions will come up again Sept. 18-19 when Dr. Foushee and representatives from manufacturers and airlines meet to discuss the national
plan for improving the way people use technology in aviation.
Adding to the urgency of the research is the current boom in pilot hiring. Over the next decade a new generation of pilots will be climbing into cockpits, and virtually all their airline training will come in the new jets.
"What happens when the automation fails?" asked Earl L. Wiener of the University of Miami, an expert in pilot performance who is directing the Atlanta study. "A collision is coming between very inexperienced pilots and
very sophisticated aircraft."
To be sure, today's pilots have the advantage of extensive training on advanced
cockpit simulators, which duplicate every movement a plane would make. A pilot
in a simulator can practice fIying after losing various computer and control systems.
"There have been many simulator advances that hopefully will give pilots training advantages that an older generation of pilots didn't have," Dr. Foushee said.
Still, while simulator training could help for some kinds of emergencies, others, like the loss of the hydraulic system in the DC-10 in lowa, are considered so remote that pilots do not train for them on simulators.
Besides examining how well pilots respond in emergencies, researchers hope to examine any differences in the ways pilots work with one another in automated and conventional cockpits, said Dr. Everett Palmer of NASA's Ames Research Center, which is financing the study led by Dr. Wiener.
Aum Sweet Aum.
Actually Pilots will be getting more of computer experts, administrating the local plane network and function. -> They'll be bugtrackers and solversKnight255 wrote:Thank god there are airlines like Southwest that REQUIRE that the pilot hand-land the airplane every time. No CAT III approaches though...
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Advisor
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fftopic: Some Humour
The passenger aircraft was fully loaded and in the air after takeoff when the announcement came over the loudspeaker: Ladies and gentlemen, we've been working on a fully automatic piloting system for years that doesn't need a flight crew and are proud to announce that it has been perfected. You are the first passengers to fly controlled by software only with nobody in the cockpit.We are proud that during all our testing there has never been a mistake, mistake, mistake, mistake, mistake, ...
Aum Sweet Aum.
Upon reading the article, I was wondering whether a system can be devised that would incorporate the two systems used by Boeing (Soft Limits) & Airbus (Hard Limits) on their FBW planes. Can't there be a switch that would allow the pilot to interchange between both soft & hard limits?
I would assume that if this was possible, the default position would be on "Hard Limits" as used by Airbus but in an emergency or if the situation arises, the pilot can switch this to soft limits allowing him/her to manually exceed the planes design limits to a pre-deterined point.
Cheers,
Walter.
I would assume that if this was possible, the default position would be on "Hard Limits" as used by Airbus but in an emergency or if the situation arises, the pilot can switch this to soft limits allowing him/her to manually exceed the planes design limits to a pre-deterined point.
Cheers,
Walter.
In an emergency situation, the last thing you want a pilot to do is to have to push more buttons. Take it from me. In an emergency situation, the pilots main focus should be flying the plane. Once the plain is stabalized, troubleshoot. If the pilot has to fumble looking for some switch to switch off the "hard-limits" then valuable seconds are wasted, and in the age of jets, decisions and actions MUST be taken within the span of seconds. Not a good idea if you ask me. (I admit, I am biased.) 
"What's this button do?? I don't know, push it and find out................."
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Alistairbastian
- Posts: 149
- Joined: 01 Dec 2004, 00:00
yes thats a really good idea5Y-KQV wrote:Upon reading the article, I was wondering whether a system can be devised that would incorporate the two systems used by Boeing (Soft Limits) & Airbus (Hard Limits) on their FBW planes. Can't there be a switch that would allow the pilot to interchange between both soft & hard limits? Walter.
Knight255 brother i firmly agree with you .. me being a system administrator know how computers act and react to situations and they programmed on logic its 1 or 0 .
yes but then as the future is in newer technology lets pray for better system
I agree with both of you ..... let's just hope that the newer technology would be more reliable & incorporate equally reliable redundancy systems.Alistairbastian wrote:Knight255 brother i firmly agree with you .. me being a system administrator know how computers act and react to situations and they programmed on logic its 1 or 0 .
yes but then as the future is in newer technology lets pray for better system
Very well said. I retract my statement on the switch thing!Knight255 wrote:In an emergency situation, the last thing you want a pilot to do is to have to push more buttons. Take it from me. In an emergency situation, the pilots main focus should be flying the plane.
Aren't most of us?Knight255 wrote:(I admit, I am biased.)
Cheers,
Walter.
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HorsePower
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