Air Belgium in 2023

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nordikcam
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by nordikcam »

There are no more flights to the French West Indies, it is impossible to book...but there are KF CRL flights to the West Indies like today! Like last week. Is it for the fun of flying the plane ? Another reason ?

Miqvell
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Miqvell »

nordikcam wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 17:19 There are no more flights to the French West Indies, it is impossible to book...but there are KF CRL flights to the West Indies like today! Like last week. Is it for the fun of flying the plane ? Another reason ?
Weekly MSC charters

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Conti764
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Conti764 »

MiStEr-T wrote: 07 Apr 2023, 09:56
Conti764 wrote: 05 Apr 2023, 09:53
brabel wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 14:15 During the state visit to South Africa, Air Belgium announced new routes this fall to US and 'an' Asian country. Not clear whether this will be from CRL or BRU.
Nicky Terzakis also said new money will be needed to get more planes and expand the network. At the moment, most of the revenue is because of cargo.
I guess AB will now focus on BRU for pax service. Much easier and logical.
I hope, on the contrary, that AB will develop more and more flights from CLR.
That was the initial deal with the Walloon region.
Avoiding BRU is a good thing as a passenger.
The kind of operations KF has make no sense from CRL. It is and remains a lowcost airport.

And I don't know what's to avoid from BRU... It's an easy to navigate not so big airport. I flew from AMS once, that airport is a disaster.

longwings
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by longwings »

JOVAN2 wrote: 07 Apr 2023, 11:04 A possible destination would be DENVER: a huge airport now with connections to all important airports on West Coast + in MidWest.
Agreement with FRONTIER Airlines would offer top opportunities.
Frontier isn't big on code-shares, were you thinking interline?
They also have limited coverage West of DEN and Air Belgium would have to educate passengers that ONT is the same as LAX (not that it is impossible of course). Not to mention DEN is not a small United hub and if Air Belgium ever gets a significant foothold, there will be a 4th UA plane in BRU daily with a lot more connections to the West coast.
BOS, DFW, LAS, LAX seem more likely.

JOVAN2
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by JOVAN2 »

longwings wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 07:13
Not to mention DEN is not a small United hub and if Air Belgium ever gets a significant foothold, there will be a 4th UA plane in BRU daily with a lot more connections to the West coast.

UA has more daily connections via AMS to USA (5) than they have out of Brussels (3);
i do not see them start more activities out of BRU, as grandmother LH seems to block any intercontinental developments for SN.
Never understood why LH did really nothing with the BRU-HUB which is ideally located between CDG and AMS to steal PAX from AF and KL.

Hope Air Belgium can take some advantage from this situation.
Short flights will soon be something of the past, so Train connections (IC and HST) will be an advantage for BRU and its potential catchment area.
(> 20 mio people).

flightlover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by flightlover »

JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34
longwings wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 07:13
Not to mention DEN is not a small United hub and if Air Belgium ever gets a significant foothold, there will be a 4th UA plane in BRU daily with a lot more connections to the West coast.

UA has more daily connections via AMS to USA (5) than they have out of Brussels (3);
i do not see them start more activities out of BRU, as grandmother LH seems to block any intercontinental developments for SN.
Never understood why LH did really nothing with the BRU-HUB which is ideally located between CDG and AMS to steal PAX from AF and KL.

Hope Air Belgium can take some advantage from this situation.
Short flights will soon be something of the past, so Train connections (IC and HST) will be an advantage for BRU and its potential catchment area.
(> 20 mio people).
With the maximum number of flights under fire in AMS there might be more oportunities comming to BRU.

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Atlantis
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Atlantis »

flightlover wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 12:37
JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34
longwings wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 07:13
Not to mention DEN is not a small United hub and if Air Belgium ever gets a significant foothold, there will be a 4th UA plane in BRU daily with a lot more connections to the West coast.

UA has more daily connections via AMS to USA (5) than they have out of Brussels (3);
i do not see them start more activities out of BRU, as grandmother LH seems to block any intercontinental developments for SN.
Never understood why LH did really nothing with the BRU-HUB which is ideally located between CDG and AMS to steal PAX from AF and KL.

Hope Air Belgium can take some advantage from this situation.
Short flights will soon be something of the past, so Train connections (IC and HST) will be an advantage for BRU and its potential catchment area.
(> 20 mio people).
With the maximum number of flights under fire in AMS there might be more oportunities comming to BRU.
Forget it. Airlines always find some gap in the system to fly to AMS. For those airlines is more interesting bcs of much more possibilities from AMS + much more international companies. BRU had NATO and the EU but this is rather limited. If not those, BRU would be really small. Just frankly speaking

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Atlantis
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Atlantis »

JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34
longwings wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 07:13
Not to mention DEN is not a small United hub and if Air Belgium ever gets a significant foothold, there will be a 4th UA plane in BRU daily with a lot more connections to the West coast.

UA has more daily connections via AMS to USA (5) than they have out of Brussels (3);
i do not see them start more activities out of BRU, as grandmother LH seems to block any intercontinental developments for SN.
Never understood why LH did really nothing with the BRU-HUB which is ideally located between CDG and AMS to steal PAX from AF and KL.

Hope Air Belgium can take some advantage from this situation.
Short flights will soon be something of the past, so Train connections (IC and HST) will be an advantage for BRU and its potential catchment area.
(> 20 mio people).
I think that no other airline can forbit UA to fly more to BRU. UA is bigger and stronger than LH.

It has more to do with attitude. Belgians are much more withdrown and staying under the church than e.g. Dutch people. Of course much more other things are involved in this. But some time ago there was a public statement that Philippines Airlines is on top to fly to BRU. Nothing visible, silence. If it was AMS, they were already there. The same with Singapore Airlines, Thai, etc.

Sad, but reality

longwings
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by longwings »

JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34 UA has more daily connections via AMS to USA (5) than they have out of Brussels (3);
Despite the obvious aviation links, maybe not the right place to address this because one of the several explanation heads straight to politics... As in the political choices that result in Belgium being replaced by provinces no one has heard of in trade and tourism fairs.
JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34 i do not see them start more activities out of BRU, as grandmother LH seems to block any intercontinental developments for SN.
Curious to find out how Lufty would stop UA from adding flights to BRU if they so chose.

JOVAN2
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by JOVAN2 »

It has more to do with attitude. Belgians are much more withdrown and staying under the church than e.g. Dutch people. Of course much more other things are involved in this. But some time ago there was a public statement that Philippines Airlines is on top to fly to BRU. Nothing visible, silence. If it was AMS, they were already there. The same with Singapore Airlines, Thai, etc.

Sad, but reality
BRU being in the center of one of the richest and most populated area's in the world , with a catmant area of 20million people, and with saturated air ports in AMS, CDG, ...
Easy Road and Train connections...

How can BRU-management achieve such poor results in attracting the big Asian airlines and the very big US carriers.

Are they just lazy? incompetent? overpaid ? The lack of ambition is really disturbing. And BRU is still an expensive airport with obsolete facilities.
NOT a great place for travellers.

Very Sad
.
Last edited by sn26567 on 19 Apr 2023, 11:39, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected BBCode

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by sn26567 »

André
ex Sabena #26567

oldblueeyes
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by oldblueeyes »

longwings wrote: 19 Apr 2023, 02:57
JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34 UA has more daily connections via AMS to USA (5) than they have out of Brussels (3);
Despite the obvious aviation links, maybe not the right place to address this because one of the several explanation heads straight to politics... As in the political choices that result in Belgium being replaced by provinces no one has heard of in trade and tourism fairs.
JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34 i do not see them start more activities out of BRU, as grandmother LH seems to block any intercontinental developments for SN.
Curious to find out how Lufty would stop UA from adding flights to BRU if they so chose.
You are aware that LH and UA have a transatlantic JV and share cost and revenue 50/50?

So it is not LH blocking SN nor UA not willig to expand. Airlines know very well the O&D Pax and how they transfer and can project if it would be worth to shift capacity.

SN got for the time being a protected niche where the other LH group airlines don't fly - this is the West African market. Should ITA and TAP land in the LH group there might be a fair need to re-judge the hubs and their focuses.

And no, this might not bring huge opportunities to Air Belgium. There not more than frech speaking wallonian pride behind it.

crew1990
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by crew1990 »

oldblueeyes wrote: 29 Apr 2023, 12:34 And no, this might not bring huge opportunities to Air Belgium. There not more than frech speaking wallonian pride behind it.
It was the same with VLM and Air Antwerp... with flemish pride, the difference here is that they both went bankrupt over and over again.

If Brussels Airlines had a fair balance fr/nl there would be no issue but unfortunately there are still a big gap in that point.

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Lux_avi »

oldblueeyes wrote: 29 Apr 2023, 12:34
And no, this might not bring huge opportunities to Air Belgium. There not more than frech speaking wallonian pride behind it.
Not sure I understood what you're trying to say here (admit it's quite difficult...), but the "frech speaking wallonian" don't seem to be willing to invest further into Air Belgium, so what pride are you talking about?

oldblueeyes
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by oldblueeyes »

Well,

Let's try to have a look outside emotions.
Belgium is not a large country and there are 2 central airports :BRU with around 25 Mio Pax (pre-pandemic) and CRL with around 8 Mil. CRL is a low cost airlines airport serving a lot of ethnical and leisure destinations.
In a honest review, as BRU had several modernisation waves, there would be enough to have one large modern airport ( not entering the micro discussion about traffic jams etc). The small distance between the 2 is just cannibalising the market and the LCC are playing this game on getting reduced fees.
Air Belgium was created in 2016 after LH took 100% ownership of SN, with help of the Wallonian Investment Fund, with a nationalistisc name and color code aiming to offer a patriotic alternative to the Eurowings plans LH had those days with SN?

At least this plan failed and the company survives in a decent way as a service provide of wet leases and as a cargo platform. On the ownership side 49% belong now to a Chinese investor.

So if there are speculations here in the forum on what long haul Air Belgium might fly under own commercial responsibility the outlook might be different. The company tries to make a living as a service provider to others but the initial idea of operating under its own flag is limited. compared to the initial idea as the company was founded, not much substance remained.

Bracebrace
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Bracebrace »

oldblueeyes wrote: 29 Apr 2023, 12:34There not more than frech speaking wallonian pride behind it.
Interesting quote. Whenever SN Brussels is on the verge of bankruptcy, the federal government has to invest money through extra loans. At the same time Air Belgium switched to cargo in very short notice and survived. And they are still flying... with many Flemish pilots on board.

The most stable operators for years and years, have been cargo operators: providing and creating many many jobs. Look at ASLB, a cargo operator with a fleet size that almost equals Brussels Airlines, and full of Flemish pilots. Who talks about them? Would they ever get a loan from the government? Or are you going to get a political reason for not doing so because they were based out of Liège initially, even though they fly out of Brussels and Paris as well?

Would be rewarding to see the federal government and Belgian citizens treasure their cargo operators for once, even though they originated on "the other side".

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Passenger »

oldblueeyes wrote: 01 May 2023, 09:36 ...
Air Belgium was created in 2016 after LH took 100% ownership of SN, with help of the Wallonian Investment Fund, with a nationalistisc name and color code aiming to offer a patriotic alternative to the Eurowings plans LH had those days with SN?
...
Air Belgium's initial business plan was Brussels-Hongkong. Hence the original investor: Aviation Investment Holding, a Belgian-registered nv/sa owned by Hongkong residents only (experienced in cargo though).
Then came the delay with the ABB AOC.
Then came the unrest in Hongkong.
Only then, Wallonie stepped in. With money and a new company strategy (objected by the initial Hongkong investors - "see you in court").
Then the Covid 19 pandemic started.

longwings
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by longwings »

oldblueeyes wrote: 29 Apr 2023, 12:34
longwings wrote: 19 Apr 2023, 02:57
JOVAN2 wrote: 12 Apr 2023, 11:34 i do not see them start more activities out of BRU, as grandmother LH seems to block any intercontinental developments for SN.
Curious to find out how Lufty would stop UA from adding flights to BRU if they so chose.
You are aware that LH and UA have a transatlantic JV and share cost and revenue 50/50?

So it is not LH blocking SN nor UA not willig to expand. Airlines know very well the O&D Pax and how they transfer and can project if it would be worth to shift capacity.
The joint-venture is not between LH and UA alone.

It is called the A++ joint venture and it unites Air Canada, United Airlines, and the Lufthansa Group (incl. SN). Cost and revenue are not shared equally by the three parties.

Also, not sure whether you picked the wrong post to respond to, or were trying to make a point and missed the mark. I never claimed LH could or would block SN or UA expanding TATL flights at BRU.
oldblueeyes wrote: 29 Apr 2023, 12:34And no, this might not bring huge opportunities to Air Belgium. There not more than frech speaking wallonian pride behind it.
Lost me.

flo82b
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by flo82b »

Frequencies have temporarily further reduced in May and June. Cape Town is axed for 4 weeks and Johannesburg and Mauritius reduced to one weekly rotation.

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Vic Diesel
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Vic Diesel »

flo82b wrote: 11 May 2023, 10:44 Frequencies have temporarily further reduced in May and June. Cape Town is axed for 4 weeks and Johannesburg and Mauritius reduced to one weekly rotation.
It's a pity: planning a trip to ZA, I was seriously considering KF as they would have offered convenient non-stop flights to both CPT and JNB. But now I am reconsidering as it seems to risky to book with an airline that could possibly cancel more flights and ruin the trip. So let's see what "grandmother" (rather "stepmother") Hansa has on offer...
Best regards,
Viktor

(Budapest-born, Vienna-raised, Brussels-based)

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