Air Belgium in 2022

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Darjeeling
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Darjeeling »

Airbus330lover wrote: 25 Mar 2022, 10:56
sn26567 wrote: 24 Mar 2022, 23:49 What is the crazy reason for registering Belgian freighters in the Austrian Registry? ASL Airlines Belgium does it as well.
DGTA in Belgium is very slow (see the start of AB/KF)
Why do you think most of the planes, gliders are registred in other countries ? Fast, no additionnal stupid questions....
I can confirm. I would not imagine DGTA having to deal with fleets like KLM or Cargolux. :( :o
The registration a single A319 can take weeks... real civil servants "tot en met". :mrgreen:

brabel
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by brabel »

It's nice to read that Air Belgium is getting more planes and more destinations, but I'm wondering... isn't this going to quickly?
They also have boeing and airbus now. Is this a good idea to combine both?
Adding new pax destinations, but are there enough people to fill those flights? They don't have connecting passengers.

flightlover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by flightlover »

brabel wrote: 25 Mar 2022, 15:40 It's nice to read that Air Belgium is getting more planes and more destinations, but I'm wondering... isn't this going to quickly?
They also have boeing and airbus now. Is this a good idea to combine both?
Adding new pax destinations, but are there enough people to fill those flights? They don't have connecting passengers.
Since they are insourcing most if not all maintenance, there is no big drawback of having multiple types of a/c in their fleet. Yes, they will have a bit less advantage on the pilot side, but that's about it. If they opt for own maintenance structures one day, then commonality is a big advantage.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

Boavida wrote: 21 Mar 2022, 21:06 According to an article in De Tijd, Air Belgium will get 3 A380?? :o Is this correct?

The quote:
Tegelijk met de komst van de Chinezen breidt Air Belgium zijn vloot uit. De komende maanden krijgt de maatschappij van Terzakis twee exemplaren van de Boeing 747-800 in gebruik. Later dit jaar volgen drie stuks van de Superjumbo A380 van Airbus.

Source: https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 75152.html
Actually, it's not 19,3M capital increase by Hongyuan China: the Belgian shareholders (mainly Walloon government) do another cash input of 3,3M. And Hongyuan injects 16M in Air Belgium.
http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/tsv_pd ... 039303.pdf

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

sn26567 wrote: 25 Mar 2022, 12:19
Airbus330lover wrote: 25 Mar 2022, 10:56
sn26567 wrote: 24 Mar 2022, 23:49 What is the crazy reason for registering Belgian freighters in the Austrian Registry? ASL Airlines Belgium does it as well.
DGTA in Belgium is very slow (see the start of AB/KF)
Why do you think most of the planes, gliders are registered in other countries ? Fast, no additionnal stupid questions....
In the ASL Airlines Belgium case, the planes were registered in Belgium and they switched to the Austrian Registry. A loss of time, effort and money...
Do you seriously think airlines would do that if it was a loss of time, effort and money?

Sometimes I wonder if you are serious. Perhaps you should use the quick search function of your own forum; you have been told many times why some airlines choose to go OE-xxx. You seem to be refusing to get the point.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

The timetable for South Africa (JNB Johannesburg and CPT Cape Town) is not encouraging for the travel trade. It’s only excellent for one group: senior (retired) citizens.

- only 2 outgoing travel days (Wed and Sun), only 3 return days (Mon, Tue, Thu).

- without codesharing, business travellers won’t book. If they miss their flight or if they want to amend their stay, ABB cannot help them.

- tourists can’t enjoy a two-weeks-holiday with two weeks off at work: there are no flights for that. Optimal use of time at location prevails to comfort of the flight schedule.

- preferential departure day for tourists is Saturday. Not possible. Preferential return days for tourists: Friday and Saturday. Not possible.

- a return flight from CPT at 15h (CPT-JNB-BRU on Thursday) means a lost day in that beautiful city (example: KLM CPT-AMS departs only at midnight, leaving a full day for leisure). Only the Tuesday return at 19h (CPT-BRU) is good.

Acid-drop
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Acid-drop »

Mamamia
How can they fill 300 seats with that

And wait for the price... to the french caribbean its often +60% compared to french airlines seats
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Passenger wrote: 26 Mar 2022, 12:57 The timetable for South Africa (JNB Johannesburg and CPT Cape Town) is not encouraging for the travel trade. It’s only excellent for one group: senior (retired) citizens.

- only 2 outgoing travel days (Wed and Sun), only 3 return days (Mon, Tue, Thu).

- without codesharing, business travellers won’t book. If they miss their flight or if they want to amend their stay, ABB cannot help them.

- tourists can’t enjoy a two-weeks-holiday with two weeks off at work: there are no flights for that. Optimal use of time at location prevails to comfort of the flight schedule.

- preferential departure day for tourists is Saturday. Not possible. Preferential return days for tourists: Friday and Saturday. Not possible.

- a return flight from CPT at 15h (CPT-JNB-BRU on Thursday) means a lost day in that beautiful city (example: KLM CPT-AMS departs only at midnight, leaving a full day for leisure). Only the Tuesday return at 19h (CPT-BRU) is good.
Acid-drop wrote: 27 Mar 2022, 00:04 Mamamia
How can they fill 300 seats with that

And wait for the price... to the french caribbean its often +60% compared to french airlines seats


There are plenty leisure Europeans airlines that serves Sub-Saharan Africa only on point to point via Charter flights.

Before the war, Ukraine and Russians airline operated dozens weekly flight to Tanzania, Seychelles and Kenya. Some flights were operated with the B777-300ER and A350-900.

LOT operates charter flights to Tanzania, Kenya and Mauritius, and previoulsy Magadascar using B787-9. Italians airlines were also active in the region.

Isrealis airlines are also very busy in East Africa and Indian Ocean.

Recent years, Tanzania and Kenya made huge promotion in East Europe (Buglaria, Romania, Ukraine, Russia, Poland). It can be suprising, because they are not big cultural exchange and diplomatic ties between these countries, contrary to former colonial countries.

Request can come from South Africa Tourist Industry. They have seen a potiential for Belgian market.

Before the covid, almost 60 000 Belgian tourists visited South Africa, one of biggest marker in Europe for South African ;)

Belgium is also one of the leading sources of inbound tourism from Europe, with 57 232 Belgian tourists visiting South Africa during 2019. In 2020, South Africa received 54,233 Belgian tourists, but this number has declined to 43,862 by the end of February 2021. http://www.dirco.gov.za/foreign/bilateral/belguim.html
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rwandan-flyer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Passenger wrote: 26 Mar 2022, 12:57 The timetable for South Africa (JNB Johannesburg and CPT Cape Town) is not encouraging for the travel trade. It’s only excellent for one group: senior (retired) citizens.

- only 2 outgoing travel days (Wed and Sun), only 3 return days (Mon, Tue, Thu).

- without codesharing, business travellers won’t book. If they miss their flight or if they want to amend their stay, ABB cannot help them.


- tourists can’t enjoy a two-weeks-holiday with two weeks off at work: there are no flights for that. Optimal use of time at location prevails to comfort of the flight schedule.

- preferential departure day for tourists is Saturday. Not possible. Preferential return days for tourists: Friday and Saturday. Not possible.

- a return flight from CPT at 15h (CPT-JNB-BRU on Thursday) means a lost day in that beautiful city (example: KLM CPT-AMS departs only at midnight, leaving a full day for leisure). Only the Tuesday return at 19h (CPT-BRU) is good.
Read on Le Soir ;)


And we are also developing interline agreements with other airlines to develop our network or feed it, we are in the process of finalizing a dozen agreements with various airlines, particularly Scandinavian ones.

There will be other destinations to Africa, but there we cannot go into the details yet. We can only say that it will not be in direct competition with Brussels Airlines, we have no interest in it.

We will serve Cape Town and Johannesburg and there are agreements that are under discussion to offer additional destinations, not only domestic, but also regional, in South Africa but also in the southern part of Africa.

Full article

Air Belgium, saved by cargo, revives the passenger sector

New planes, new shareholders, new destinations, Niky Terzakis is particularly targeting South Africa.

The Belgian airline is coming out of the pandemic totally different. The company no longer only operates passenger flights departing from Charleroi but also from Brussels, it has extended its destinations in the Caribbean, developed a cargo flight activity, welcomed a new Chinese minority shareholder, completely renewed its fleet... And soon she will be flying to South Africa. A first direct flight since… the bankruptcy of Sabena. Niky Terzakis, its CEO, details the new life of his company.

At the end of February, the Hongyuan group took a 49% stake in Air Belgium through a capital increase, all the other non-European shareholders left the shareholding, the European shareholders (Editor's note: SRIW, Sogepa, SFPI, 3T Management and Sabena Aerospace ) remain the same with a 51% majority. Hongyuan is far from unknown in Belgium. The group already has a 14,000 m2 warehouse near Liège airport and another of 10,000 m2 directly at Brussels airport.

With them come new planes, two Boeing 747-8Fs, that is to say the largest of the 747s. In a few days, we will put the first into service. There will also be Airbus A330 freighters which will arrive in June, September and a third by the end of the year. This means that at the end of September, we will be operating eleven aircraft and our staff will increase from 450 people today to more than 500.

The shipping company CMA-CGM, for whom we have launched an air cargo activity and whom we have helped to develop its strategy in the field, has decided to refocus its activities on Paris Charles-de-Gaulle. We no longer renew our relations with them because, I repeat, our DNA is to develop activities in Belgium.

For passenger flights, this summer there will be no changes, we continue to serve Punta Cana, Mauritius, the French West Indies and Curaçao.
On the other hand, for the winter, or the fall, we are adding another destination in the Caribbean, Bonaire, which will be coupled with the service to Curaçao, while Punta Cana becomes a direct round trip.

And then, from September, we start selling South Africa, Johannesburg and Cape Town.
And we are also developing interline agreements with other airlines to develop our network or feed it, we are in the process of finalizing a dozen agreements with various airlines, particularly Scandinavian ones.

There will be other destinations to Africa, but there we cannot go into the details yet. We can only say that it will not be in direct competition with Brussels Airlines, we have no interest in it.

We will serve Cape Town and Johannesburg and there are agreements that are under discussion to offer additional destinations, not only domestic, but also regional, in South Africa but also in the southern part of Africa.

Since February, we have seen incredible growth in sales, bookings and so on. I'm not saying it's going to be rosy but we remain quite optimistic. Like the other companies, we are seeing a comeback. We are breaking sales and reservation records every week and, above all, we are seeing fewer and fewer cancellations, that is a real change.

We expect to be profitable from 2023 in passengers and cargo. In 2021, we more or less reached a balance but the end of the year ruined everything and 2021 will not be good. Fortunately, we had the cargo business to counterbalance the situation. But for the rest, you have to be careful. Rising fuel prices are another thing.

Finally, if we look at your various upcoming projects, will Brussels become your main base?
No, we have development plans for Charleroi too. For example, our new Airbus A330 neo aircraft will start operating from April 1 on departure from Charleroi, which is good news for Charleroi Airport, which is seeing the arrival of an environmentally more efficient aircraft and which will make full use of the new runway.

This type of plane, with a long range, will also play a role in your plan to go to the United States.
It's no secret that this has been part of our plans for a long time and that they are on the horizon for 2023. I will not say for which destination, but if we have A330 neo, it is not to fly to the next door.

https://www.lesoir.be/431446/article/20 ... up-voyager
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Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 27 Mar 2022, 15:18 Request can come from South Africa Tourist Industry. They have seen a potiential for Belgian market. Before the covid, almost 60.000 Belgian tourists visited South Africa, one of biggest markets in Europe for South Africa ;) Belgium is also one of the leading sources of inbound tourism from Europe, with 57.232 Belgian tourists visiting South Africa during 2019. In 2020, South Africa received 54.233 Belgian tourists, but this number has declined to 43.862 by the end of February 2021.
There are only three big markets from Europe to South Africa (figures for 2018): DE / FR / NL:
343.229 Germany
186.251 France
146.925 The Netherlands
63.870 Italy
58.320 Switzerland
57.232 Belgium
48.740 Sweden
41.766 Spain
31.754 Portugal
31.597 Ireland
30.119 Austria
27.649 Denmark
rwandan-flyer wrote: 27 Mar 2022, 15:44 Read on Le Soir ;)
And we are also developing interline agreements with other airlines to develop our network or feed it, we are in the process of finalizing a dozen agreements with various airlines, particularly Scandinavian ones.
Passengers need codesharing agreements, airlines need interline agreements.

When you are 10.000 kms from home, interline agreements is a basic need. Example: when you have a group coming from Port Elizabeth, and that feeder fails. No other flights that evening = pax are stranded. An interline agreement then allows you to rebook them onto another carrier at a decent rate.

A codesharing, example with Air France, would allow passengers to book dep BRU-JNB and ret JNB-CDG-BRU.

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

Passenger wrote: 27 Mar 2022, 17:20
rwandan-flyer wrote: 27 Mar 2022, 15:18 Request can come from South Africa Tourist Industry. They have seen a potiential for Belgian market. Before the covid, almost 60.000 Belgian tourists visited South Africa, one of biggest markets in Europe for South Africa ;) Belgium is also one of the leading sources of inbound tourism from Europe, with 57.232 Belgian tourists visiting South Africa during 2019. In 2020, South Africa received 54.233 Belgian tourists, but this number has declined to 43.862 by the end of February 2021.
There are only three big markets from Europe to South Africa (figures for 2018): DE / FR / NL:
343.229 Germany
186.251 France
146.925 The Netherlands
63.870 Italy
58.320 Switzerland
57.232 Belgium
48.740 Sweden
41.766 Spain
31.754 Portugal
31.597 Ireland
30.119 Austria
27.649 Denmark
rwandan-flyer wrote: 27 Mar 2022, 15:44 Read on Le Soir ;)
And we are also developing interline agreements with other airlines to develop our network or feed it, we are in the process of finalizing a dozen agreements with various airlines, particularly Scandinavian ones.
Passengers need codesharing agreements, airlines need interline agreements.

When you are 10.000 kms from home, interline agreements is a basic need. Example: when you have a group coming from Port Elizabeth, and that feeder fails. No other flights that evening = pax are stranded. An interline agreement then allows you to rebook them onto another carrier at a decent rate.

A codesharing, example with Air France, would allow passengers to book dep BRU-JNB and ret JNB-CDG-BRU.
Yeah, and which airline would be willing to have an interline agreement with AB? They would pay high price anyway.

Basic need, yeah right.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

Lux_avi wrote: 01 Apr 2022, 10:30 Yeah, and which airline would be willing to have an interline agreement with AB? They would pay high price anyway.
Basic need, yeah right.
An interline agreement isn't a high risk for airlines, as there is limited time between effective date of travel and due date of payment. But for airlines with a limited fleet and no network, like AB, it's a basic need.

Codesharing will be a different story. Financial risks then are high.

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

Passenger wrote: 01 Apr 2022, 12:50
Lux_avi wrote: 01 Apr 2022, 10:30 Yeah, and which airline would be willing to have an interline agreement with AB? They would pay high price anyway.
Basic need, yeah right.
An interline agreement isn't a high risk for airlines, as there is limited time between effective date of travel and due date of payment. But for airlines with a limited fleet and no network, like AB, it's a basic need.

Codesharing will be a different story. Financial risks then are high.
And how much would such an agreement cost?
Why on earth would an airline make such an agreement with AB, while they cannot offer anything in exchange?

fcw
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by fcw »

Lux_avi wrote: 01 Apr 2022, 18:38 And how much would such an agreement cost?
Why on earth would an airline make such an agreement with AB, while they cannot offer anything in exchange?
Beside some IT-work it doesn’t cost much and it generates revenue for both airlines!
Eg: You buy a ticket on the AB website, BRU to JNB with AB and return with KLM. You pay AB, AB pays the return leg to KLM.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

Covid-19 has hurt all airlines, so nobody will be eager to take risks with new business partners. After all, just like most passenger airlines, AB can’t present a good balance sheet and there is still that pending court claim from the initial B-shareholders (Avia Invest, Sumchenko, Yip and others) who want their money back.

Codesharing is high risk, interline agreements are low risk when the agreement is limited. Regarding South Africa:

Interline as add-on: lots of possibilities in South Africa. Domestic flights are very common there, so AB will be able to sell Brussels-Johannesburg-Durban or Windhoek-Johannesburg-Brussels.

Interline as feeder or add-on: European airlines that don’t fly to RSA will gladly step in. Example: Prague-Brussels-Johannesburg or Johannesburg-Brussels-Copenhagen, on AB-tickets.

Interline as rescue (unvoluntary reroutings, cfr IATA’s Irregular Operations): this allows AB to rebook stranded pax onto, example LH AF KL without having to negociate a rate under extreme time pressure. It’s this limited agreement that they absolutely need. Luckily both parties benefit, as all airlines sometimes have stranded pax. Thus yes.

Codesharing allows to multiply your schedule. Example BRU-JNB with AB and JNB-AMS-BRU with KL. Airlines will not help a competitor airline to establish a market share. Only an airline with also a limited flight schedule may do so. Or an airline that has little or no Belgian clients for RSA. But they all have... Thus, unfortunately, I don’t see them realize a codesharing agreement.

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

Passenger wrote: 02 Apr 2022, 11:41, unfortunately, I don’t see them realize a codesharing agreement.
Neither do I… unfortunately.

And with the high amount of flights available direct to JNB and CPT from AMS/FRA/MUC/LHR/…no foreigner will be interested in flying triangle with Air Belgium.

Good luck with making money on this route…

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Some data from an African Aviation Website. For export Belgium is one of biggest market for Cape region and City of Brussels 2nd biggest unserved market in Europe. Before covid, P2P between Cape Town and Brussels trafic was 35 000 passengers in 2019, with a Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 10% each year between 2015 and 2019.

I m curious to know how many pax RwandAir carrres between Johannesurg / Cape Town and Brussels. They serve Brussels 3 times a week, Cape Town 3 times a week and Johannesburg 10 times a week.

Cape Town Air Access Celebrates new Flights to Belgium, a Key Export Market https://airspace-africa.com/2022/04/04/ ... rt-market/

After the announcement of South Africa’s first nonstop flight to Brussels Airport, starting September 14 with Air Belgium, the City of Cape Town has welcomed the air connection to a key export market for South Africa’s Western Cape.

[...]

In 2019, two-way international passenger volumes on the BEL-CPT route exceeded 35 000 passengers, amounting to a Compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 10% each year between 2015 and 2019. In addition, a total of 863 metric tonnes of air cargo was transported on the BEL-CPT route, representing a 52% recovery rate when compared to 2019.

In terms of exports, Belgium is the Western Cape’s 7th largest European export market, with R2.61bn worth of goods exported in 2021 (up 81.5% from 2020) while Brussels has historically been Cape Town’s second largest unserved market and the largest unserved European market based on two-way international passenger volumes.

Western Cape Minister of Finance and Economic Opportunities, David Maynier said: “I welcome Air Belgium’s announcement to launch a triangular route between Brussels, Johannesburg and Cape Town as yet another signal of recovery for the Western Cape’s tourism and hospitality sector. Air Brussels focuses on leisure travel and shows that there is a clear uptick in demand for flights to Cape Town and the Western Cape, which is good for our economy and the creation of jobs in the Western Cape. I would like to congratulate the Cape Air Access team at the Western Cape government’s official destination marketing organisation, Wesgro, who continue to proactively and successfully engage with key tourism markets, taking advantage of pent-up traveller demand, to increase connections to the Western Cape.”

City of Cape Town’s Mayoral Committee Member for Economic Growth, Alderman James Vos, said: “This is great news for Cape Town! The additional capacity provided between Belgium and Cape Town will offer superb potential for growth in business and leisure travel between these destinations for international visitors and locals alike. As the City’s Mayoral Committee Member for Economic Growth, I’m keenly aware of the benefits to the local economy of being able to bring more passengers and flights to Cape Town. It is because of these significant spin-offs that I motivated for more funding towards our Air Access initiative. The more we extend our reach, the more Cape Town and South Africa can reap the economic benefits of tourism.”
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longwings
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by longwings »

So O/D for CPT alone can fill 1.5 flights a week. Maybe 3x weekly for JNB/CPT is doable if they capture most of the demand and create new one. Definitely a leisure route though. Biz travelers will prefer KLM's daily flight.

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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by sn26567 »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 07 Apr 2022, 11:35 I m curious to know how many pax RwandAir carries between Johannesburg / Cape Town and Brussels. They serve Brussels 3 times a week, Cape Town 3 times a week and Johannesburg 10 times a week.
What are the connection times? People don't like losing hours at an intermediate airport. Ideally, it should be between 2 and 4 hours in both directions.
André
ex Sabena #26567

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by rwandan-flyer »

sn26567 wrote: 07 Apr 2022, 15:02
rwandan-flyer wrote: 07 Apr 2022, 11:35 I m curious to know how many pax RwandAir carries between Johannesburg / Cape Town and Brussels. They serve Brussels 3 times a week, Cape Town 3 times a week and Johannesburg 10 times a week.
What are the connection times? People don't like losing hours at an intermediate airport. Ideally, it should be between 2 and 4 hours in both directions.
Flights to Cape Town leaves Kigali in the morning via Harare and back to Kigali in the evening. Almost same timetables for Johannesburg flights with a stop at Lusaka.

BRU-KGL flights leave BRU in the evening and arrives early in the morning and for the KGL-BRU

Flights to Cape Town are operated mainly with CRJ-900* and B737-700 / 800. About Johannesburg, mostly B737-800s and few times A330s

Depennding period (winter or summer iata season) you are to wait for at Kigali between 2 and 4 hours in both directions.

* In Africa, many airlines uses regional aircraft on some long distance flights for a regional aircraft. Ethiopian Airlines uses sometimes its Q400 to Tanzania and Rwanda. Kenya Airways uses its ERJ to Kinshasa, Douala, Cape Town (daylight flight), Johannesburg, Douala, Bangui, Lusaka, Harare, Mauritius and Seychelles. Air Peace (Nigeria) uses its Embraer E2 from Nigeria to Senegal,...
longwings wrote: 07 Apr 2022, 14:58 So O/D for CPT alone can fill 1.5 flights a week. Maybe 3x weekly for JNB/CPT is doable if they capture most of the demand and create new one. Definitely a leisure route though. Biz travelers will prefer KLM's daily flight.
Belgium is a huge partner for the Western Cape goods exported, so it means that Air Belgium can probably also make profits thanks to the huge cargo demand. Cargo doesn't need to make a connection via Doha, Dubai, Johannesburg, Addis Ababa, Istanbul, Amsterdam,....Johannesburg has direct cargo links with Belgium but no Cape Town. Gain time
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