Air Belgium in 2022

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flo82b
Posts: 4
Joined: 13 Sep 2019, 15:08

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by flo82b »

Seeing the discussion here with all the details just wondering about the bigger picture

If I see it right Air Belgium has currently three passenger planes in use, and a fourth one was supposed to join the fleet.

One is based in Charleroi doing the Guadeloupe / Martinique turn around once or twice a week, the rest of the week the plane is unused except for charter
Two planes are based in Brussels doing twice weekly the South Africa turn around and once or twice per week Mauritius. Those turn arounds last roughly 1.5 days each that still leaves the planes unused for 4 days per week.

I don't see any airline who could expect profitable with such a small fleet and so little use of the planes in the fleet. If they pay the pilots well or not, put them in cheap hotels or not, does it really make a difference?

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Atlantis
Posts: 4931
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Atlantis »

flo82b wrote: 05 Nov 2022, 20:23 Seeing the discussion here with all the details just wondering about the bigger picture

If I see it right Air Belgium has currently three passenger planes in use, and a fourth one was supposed to join the fleet.

One is based in Charleroi doing the Guadeloupe / Martinique turn around once or twice a week, the rest of the week the plane is unused except for charter
Two planes are based in Brussels doing twice weekly the South Africa turn around and once or twice per week Mauritius. Those turn arounds last roughly 1.5 days each that still leaves the planes unused for 4 days per week.

I don't see any airline who could expect profitable with such a small fleet and so little use of the planes in the fleet. If they pay the pilots well or not, put them in cheap hotels or not, does it really make a difference?
Twice to South Africa is a bit less. It would be good to upgrade it to 3 or 4 flights a week by next season. And negotiating by then also interline agreements with carriers at BRU

Lux_avi
Posts: 307
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

TLspotting wrote: 05 Nov 2022, 11:16

I was indeed. Firstly mistake of mine that destroyed this kind of relationship, they also thought I did something when I was still working with Aviation24.be, they never apologised to me, but the group is going to stay independent, even if I have been offering them for 4 years a place in the administration of it.

But at the end, I've got so many sources that actually it was impossible not to make an article about this. It would have been really surprising that all the sources lie to me and also my coauthor. Partially fake information, but article pretty accurate. Many sources read it and agreed at 100% to the content. Air Belgium uses the word of "exodus", not even present in the L-Post article. That's the whole point, they also want to make communication on it. Terzakis told in private that I was not credible. Pilots leave the airline due to the bad work environment, that's a fact. I'm in Journalism Studies at the moment and I thought it was the perfect moment to write my first article with everything happening from the Customer Service to CMA CGM, I had never got this amount of sources. Between the lines they haven't really denied anything. Of course, on some other points like the staff under pressure, I think that if it was false, they would have corrected us and sincerely I would have prefered that a situation is better than told on a medium. But saying that it is wacky...

I have asked 15 days ago questions and even now we haven't got any answer in our email or so. You'll make your own opinion.

But destroying their image is not my goal, but at least to change things. You can read for example that through 2023, South Africa and Mauritius are going to continue. For CMA CGM, I say that with the departure of the French group, the cargo fleet of AB evolves. Everything is not negative in my article.

Last question, Air Belgium confirmed to Luchtvaartnieuws.nl, the suspension of Punta Cana and Curaçao, how is it possible that now they also react to that article if they confirmed?
Well, I know a couple of pilots who fly the 747 there and they are actually much happier than at their previous employer…just saying.

Btw, do you know how many pilots SN & TUI lost the last few months? :roll:

It’s quite obvious that you are motivated by a negative experience. Your « article » is a shame and obviously damages their image for sure.

I am glad Av24.be published an accurate and detailed answer to your bla-bla. Good job on that I have to say.

flo82b
Posts: 4
Joined: 13 Sep 2019, 15:08

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by flo82b »

The article published in the news section is the official Air Belgium statement with many open questions left unaddressed

Have the airport taxes in Curacao and Punta Cana changed recently? They are indeed high and at least in the Dominican Republic not only used for airport maintenance but also for the general budget, I suppose. All other carriers have to pay those.

The reduction of KLM flights to Curacao does not seem to be linked to that, but rather to the fact that they have to cope with capacity restrictions in Amsterdam and the re-opening of further Asian destinations.

Apart from external factors many decisions made by Air Belgium did not prove to be successful in the end. The launch of Hong-Kong from Charleroi and potential other Chinese destinations which never materialised. There the focus was a mix of passengers with a significant percentage of business travellers. The Caribbean flights are almost exclusively tourist destinations. At the launch, Charleroi was chosen because of its advantages, only to move some of the flights to Brussels a year after. Now it is South Africa again also focussing also on business travelers. While Johannesburg can be reached directly, Cape Town only with a stop in Johannesburg (staying on the plane) twice a week. Ethiopian offers that every day of the week with a change of plane in Addis Ababa more or less the same duration at often very competitive prices. Let's see if those flights last.

The destinations served by Air Belgium are all very far away so fuel costs will always play a major role leading to long turn arounds which makes it much more difficult to efficiently use the planes, combining it with "shorter" long haul destinations.

crew1990
Posts: 1484
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by crew1990 »

Lux_avi wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 08:18 Btw, do you know how many pilots SN & TUI lost the last few months? :roll:
I don't know for TUI, but for Brussels Airlines, we have a list of all people joining and leaving the company every month and I can tell you that there are pratically nobody leaving in the pilots.

ZavCity
Posts: 270
Joined: 11 Nov 2014, 17:58

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by ZavCity »

Hi
I can comfirm that the ET fares are rather competitive,flew them to JNB some time ago..But there were 2 stops, one in VIE and change of aircraft in ADB..Rather good service and on time flights!

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4931
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Atlantis »

Lux_avi wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 08:18
TLspotting wrote: 05 Nov 2022, 11:16

I was indeed. Firstly mistake of mine that destroyed this kind of relationship, they also thought I did something when I was still working with Aviation24.be, they never apologised to me, but the group is going to stay independent, even if I have been offering them for 4 years a place in the administration of it.

But at the end, I've got so many sources that actually it was impossible not to make an article about this. It would have been really surprising that all the sources lie to me and also my coauthor. Partially fake information, but article pretty accurate. Many sources read it and agreed at 100% to the content. Air Belgium uses the word of "exodus", not even present in the L-Post article. That's the whole point, they also want to make communication on it. Terzakis told in private that I was not credible. Pilots leave the airline due to the bad work environment, that's a fact. I'm in Journalism Studies at the moment and I thought it was the perfect moment to write my first article with everything happening from the Customer Service to CMA CGM, I had never got this amount of sources. Between the lines they haven't really denied anything. Of course, on some other points like the staff under pressure, I think that if it was false, they would have corrected us and sincerely I would have prefered that a situation is better than told on a medium. But saying that it is wacky...

I have asked 15 days ago questions and even now we haven't got any answer in our email or so. You'll make your own opinion.

But destroying their image is not my goal, but at least to change things. You can read for example that through 2023, South Africa and Mauritius are going to continue. For CMA CGM, I say that with the departure of the French group, the cargo fleet of AB evolves. Everything is not negative in my article.

Last question, Air Belgium confirmed to Luchtvaartnieuws.nl, the suspension of Punta Cana and Curaçao, how is it possible that now they also react to that article if they confirmed?
Well, I know a couple of pilots who fly the 747 there and they are actually much happier than at their previous employer…just saying.

Btw, do you know how many pilots SN & TUI lost the last few months? :roll:

It’s quite obvious that you are motivated by a negative experience. Your « article » is a shame and obviously damages their image for sure.

I am glad Av24.be published an accurate and detailed answer to your bla-bla. Good job on that I have to say.
I fully agree with you. Like we are saying "he is burned now". Nobody will take anything serieus from him anymore after that article.

He is very silent the last few days 😉

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Vic Diesel
Posts: 333
Joined: 06 Feb 2018, 10:10

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Vic Diesel »

ZavCity wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 11:43 Hi
I can comfirm that the ET fares are rather competitive,flew them to JNB some time ago..But there were 2 stops, one in VIE and change of aircraft in ADB..Rather good service and on time flights!
The only downturn of ET flights is the transit through ADD, a disorganised nightmare of an airport... ET itself is quite a nice airline with good products.
Best regards,
Viktor

(Budapest-born, Vienna-raised, Brussels-based)

rwandan-flyer
Posts: 986
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by rwandan-flyer »

flo82b wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 09:38 The article published in the news section is the official Air Belgium statement with many open questions left unaddressed

Have the airport taxes in Curacao and Punta Cana changed recently? They are indeed high and at least in the Dominican Republic not only used for airport maintenance but also for the general budget, I suppose. All other carriers have to pay those.

The reduction of KLM flights to Curacao does not seem to be linked to that, but rather to the fact that they have to cope with capacity restrictions in Amsterdam and the re-opening of further Asian destinations.

Apart from external factors many decisions made by Air Belgium did not prove to be successful in the end. The launch of Hong-Kong from Charleroi and potential other Chinese destinations which never materialised. There the focus was a mix of passengers with a significant percentage of business travellers. The Caribbean flights are almost exclusively tourist destinations. At the launch, Charleroi was chosen because of its advantages, only to move some of the flights to Brussels a year after. Now it is South Africa again also focussing also on business travelers. While Johannesburg can be reached directly, Cape Town only with a stop in Johannesburg (staying on the plane) twice a week. Ethiopian offers that every day of the week with a change of plane in Addis Ababa more or less the same duration at often very competitive prices. Let's see if those flights last.

The destinations served by Air Belgium are all very far away so fuel costs will always play a major role leading to long turn arounds which makes it much more difficult to efficiently use the planes, combining it with "shorter" long haul destinations.
The fuel price is too high & dollars euros bad exchange rate meaning that airlines struggle to make profits. Air France will end its year around flights to PUJ from 2023. They will provide only a winter service. Air France serves PUJ since 2002. AF sends its COI Caribean Indian Ocean B777-300ER (472 seats), but costs are too high to make the route profitable in a full year.

Few weeks ago, Air Caraibes announced the suspension of its Paris Orly-Saint Marteen for the winter season. Air France won't provide again its seasonal Orly-Saint Marteen.
Rwanda Aviation News (Drones, Air Force, Civil Aviation, Space, Air Balloon): https://www.facebook.com/RwandAn-Flyer-153177931456873

HappyFA
Posts: 7
Joined: 13 Aug 2020, 14:19

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by HappyFA »

crew1990 wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 11:39
Lux_avi wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 08:18 Btw, do you know how many pilots SN & TUI lost the last few months? :roll:
I don't know for TUI, but for Brussels Airlines, we have a list of all people joining and leaving the company every month and I can tell you that there are pratically nobody leaving in the pilots.
At tui they are losing a lot of pilots because of fixed contract offers at Brussels and Airbelgium (cargo). Wouldn’t blame them but this is off topic.

Stij
Posts: 2273
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Stij »

Vic Diesel wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 17:43 The only downturn of ET flights is the transit through ADD, a disorganised nightmare of an airport... ET itself is quite a nice airline with good products.
My two cents... a bit of topic.

I flew ET to CPT round trip last week...

ET has extremely competitive prices if... you book well in advance... I booked 9 months ago and flew round trip for 550€.
We tried to book tickets later and then Air Belgium was way cheaper.
ET flew very modern aircraft... 3 flights were with an A350-900, 1 with a 777-200LR. They were in good condition.
The food is OK... if you like rice... There's is no variation whatsoever. The wine really isn't the best. Better to drink Ethiopian beer.
The crew was very short in in questions and answers... I wonder if this is because of lack of interest or, as in China, a very rudimentary knowledge of the English language.

I found ADD to be well organised... but not very well maintained and cleaned... The security check was a joke, but not more then in CPT or EBB... This is Africa...
Food is very expensive in Addis... the kids wanted Burger King and we paid 50$ for 3 fries, a drink and some chicken nuggets.

Since the winter schedule ET now flies 5 times a week via Vienna... and twice non-stop... our flight was a non-stop one and didn't continue to Manchester any more.. Manchester now goes via Geneva.

Now back on topic...

My friends flew Air Belgium and were happy about it... of course this was only one flight... but based on that flight... the decision to stop first in JNB and then continue to CPT was a good one... most passengers left in JNB... just a minority continued to CPT...

The main problems I personally have with Air Belgium are

- Schedules are released pretty late... Bookings therefore as well...
- There is no weekend flight... So when travelling with children it's almost impossible without skipping school...

With my limited knowledge... I would copy KL's system... day flight to SA, night return

They have 4 nights "invested" in SA...

3 times to JNB, 1 time to CPT...

Something like -2-4--7 to JNB and -----6- to CPT...
They have an agreement with Air Link to connect CPT on days -2-4--7.
Same plane investment, but twice the passengers...

Yes, a dayflight outbound, but I prefer that over the current schedule...

Lux_avi
Posts: 307
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

HappyFA wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 22:58
crew1990 wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 11:39
Lux_avi wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 08:18 Btw, do you know how many pilots SN & TUI lost the last few months? :roll:
I don't know for TUI, but for Brussels Airlines, we have a list of all people joining and leaving the company every month and I can tell you that there are pratically nobody leaving in the pilots.
At tui they are losing a lot of pilots because of fixed contract offers at Brussels and Airbelgium (cargo). Wouldn’t blame them but this is off topic.
Not really off topic, since Thibault Lapers made this « issue » the title of his poor article.

Air Belgium hired many foreign pilots. Obviously foreign pilots do not want to be taxed in Belgium, so they leave the country as soon as opportunities arise elsewhere. That is not directly related to Air Belgium.

SR20
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Joined: 17 Apr 2017, 09:14

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by SR20 »

"The situation is very complicated for Air Belgium: the company is looking for at least 10 million euros to refinance itself by the end of the year and continue its activities.
And the company will have a cumulative loss of 40 million euros by the end of the year."

https://www.ln24.be/2022-11-08/la-wallo ... e-aerienne

Lux_avi
Posts: 307
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

SR20 wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 13:13 "The situation is very complicated for Air Belgium: the company is looking for at least 10 million euros to refinance itself by the end of the year and continue its activities.
And the company will have a cumulative loss of 40 million euros by the end of the year."

https://www.ln24.be/2022-11-08/la-wallo ... e-aerienne
How much money has Wallonia put in Air Belgium?
More than a small tunnel in Namur?
Or less than a train station in Mons?

Passenger
Posts: 7266
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

SR20 wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 13:13 ...
And the company will have a cumulative loss of 40 million euros by the end of the year."
...
https://www.ln24.be/2022-11-08/la-wallo ... e-aerienne
A cumulated loss of 40M on 31/12/2022 would be an improvement, as they had already 47M cumulated loss on 31/12/2021.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

Passenger wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 21:36
SR20 wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 13:13 ...
And the company will have a cumulative loss of 40 million euros by the end of the year."
...
https://www.ln24.be/2022-11-08/la-wallo ... e-aerienne
A cumulated loss of 40M on 31/12/2022 would be an improvement, as they had already 47M cumulated loss on 31/12/2021.
Just to make sure: cumulated loss 40M means: down from 47M to 40M, thus 7M profit.

DannyVDB
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Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by DannyVDB »

Hi Passenger,

Not sure this type of math's makes a lot of sense ;)

I would rather say: -47 + -40 million = -87 million. So overall an increase of the losses, certainly not a 'profit'. Especially because it is a very small airline, these are very negative numbers ... You can only say an improvement of the amount of losses, that's all ...

I wanted to use them to fly to Martinique (and then taken the boat to Saint Lucia) back in September, but there were no flights in September (there were in August and October :? ). Now I wanted to use them next weekend, but this time there are no shuttles to Saint Lucia anymore, so I am taking the UA flights via Newark. Their offer seemed also on the low side (they offered 2.000€ tickets for flying in business!).

The only way out I see is that they would become part of SN, or fly for SN. But I think that will not happen soon because it is not in the interest of the LH group as a whole. Moreover, taking over an airline with a lot of debts is never interesting.

Just my 2 cents ...
Danny

SR20
Posts: 691
Joined: 17 Apr 2017, 09:14

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by SR20 »

Atlantis wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 12:40 I fully agree with you. Like we are saying "he is burned now". Nobody will take anything serieus from him anymore after that article.
Well, it seems that Thibault was not really off the mark ! Turmoil at Air Belgium.

User avatar
Darjeeling
Posts: 307
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 10:13

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Darjeeling »

I fear the end is nearing. Walloon Govt is in deep financial turmoil, they won't inject money anytime soon. Difficult to justify that nowadays.

Air Belgium should have followed HiFly's business plan and profile. They were good at ACMI operations, and they're good as cargo company.

All the regular pax routes are pure prestige and ego stuff. They can't make money out of them. It's like Vastapane's Sobelair or Freddy Van Gaever / Tony Graam 's VG Ailrines.

Rumor as it that Lufthansa Group is closely following this file to take a potential stance later on...

Only the Chinese shareholder can save the situation, and we all know what it means.

Passenger
Posts: 7266
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Passenger »

LN24 writes: "...And the company will have a cumulative loss of 40 million euros by the end of the year..." That makes no sense. On 31/12/2021, their "cumulative loss" / bénéfice à affecter / over te dragen verlies was already 47.014.082 euros. When that cumulative loss becomes 40M, there are two possibilities: they make 7M profit this year, or the word 'cumulative' was wrongly used. Most probably, they expect a 40M loss this year, raising the cumulative loss on 31/12/2022 from 47M to 87M.

Regarding that 10M 'urgently needed' (cfr LN24): must be some kind of debt (a loan or a claim) with expiry date 01/01/2023. LN24 gives too little relevant information about that.

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