Brussels Airlines in 2022

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by sn26567 »

PttU wrote: 15 Jul 2022, 09:12
Passenger wrote: 14 Jul 2022, 10:32 For Brussels Airport, it's dual: passengers who come by train, don't use the airport parkings.
What about the Diablo-surcharge? Is that only for the NMBS (or infrabel), or does part of it go to Brussels Airport?
The Diabolo surcharge goes to reimburse the private company that financed the works. Nothing for NMBS/SNCB nor for Brussels Airport Company.
André
ex Sabena #26567

crew1990
Posts: 1484
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by crew1990 »

Lux_avi wrote: 15 Jul 2022, 10:45
crew1990 wrote: 10 Jul 2022, 15:30
"study by European aviation associations", Who paid for that "study"? Everything in the title...

There are other way than gaz to produce electricity.

Intermodality is the future, why do you think DB the german railway is now getting closer to star alliance...
Who pays for the studies that make you believe "intermodality" is the future? :lol:
I'm sharing a personnal opinion. Not allowed?

Flanker2
Posts: 1741
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Flanker2 »

Intermodal is very important in my opinion.
For someone from Antwerp, it's more convenient to fly out of AMS than it is from Charleroi or Eindhoven and if you use Thalys, almost as convenient as BRU.
That BRU is not set up for HSR is not the customer's problem.
In fact, I don't see why it's not set up for HSR after they spent zillions digging those tunnels.

The aviation of the future needs to start redefining itself.
Commerical for-profit aviation has failed in Belgium, in Europe and worldwide as government bail-outs were necessary to keep airlines afloat through the pandemic. Taxpayer money had to come to the rescue as investors weren't keen on giving back their profits of the past decade to save the airlines through the pandemic. This is not a new phenomenon, every X years, airlines face a crisis and need to be bailed out by taxpayers.
It's time to stop this charade and straight out nationalise airlines so that the money can be invested directly into transportation instead of making rich shareholders richer in good times and ask taxpayer bail outs in bad times. The EU should stop encouraging these scam schemes and start drawing an efficient, clean and organised pan-European transportation network.

Aviation is facing huge investment needs in the years ahead.
Forget fleet renewals, A220, A320 Neo, B737 Max, B787, A350. Ok they are progress in terms of fuel efficiency and noise pollution, but we're 10 years away from fusion energy demonstration and 15 years away from a transition to hydrogen.

It's time to unify transportation in Europe and stop this SN/LH vs AF/KLM vs IAG vs Ryanair vs Easyjet nonsense.

Time to go Zero on carbon across all modes of transport and stop funding stop-gap solutions.


Lux_avi
Posts: 307
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

Flanker2 wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 03:10 Intermodal is very important in my opinion.
For someone from Antwerp, it's more convenient to fly out of AMS than it is from Charleroi or Eindhoven and if you use Thalys, almost as convenient as BRU.
That BRU is not set up for HSR is not the customer's problem.
In fact, I don't see why it's not set up for HSR after they spent zillions digging those tunnels.

The aviation of the future needs to start redefining itself.
Commerical for-profit aviation has failed in Belgium, in Europe and worldwide as government bail-outs were necessary to keep airlines afloat through the pandemic. Taxpayer money had to come to the rescue as investors weren't keen on giving back their profits of the past decade to save the airlines through the pandemic. This is not a new phenomenon, every X years, airlines face a crisis and need to be bailed out by taxpayers.
It's time to stop this charade and straight out nationalise airlines so that the money can be invested directly into transportation instead of making rich shareholders richer in good times and ask taxpayer bail outs in bad times. The EU should stop encouraging these scam schemes and start drawing an efficient, clean and organised pan-European transportation network.

Aviation is facing huge investment needs in the years ahead.
Forget fleet renewals, A220, A320 Neo, B737 Max, B787, A350. Ok they are progress in terms of fuel efficiency and noise pollution, but we're 10 years away from fusion energy demonstration and 15 years away from a transition to hydrogen.

It's time to unify transportation in Europe and stop this SN/LH vs AF/KLM vs IAG vs Ryanair vs Easyjet nonsense.

Time to go Zero on carbon across all modes of transport and stop funding stop-gap solutions.

Taxpayer money? In most cases, it was in form of LOANS with interests.
It's not quite the same as giving away taxpayer money!

Brussels Airlines received a LOAN of 290 millions.
How much money has been *GIVEN* to other small business in Belgium?

No need to comment the rest of your message, it's complete nonsense, as always.

Lux_avi
Posts: 307
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

crew1990 wrote: 15 Jul 2022, 13:13
I'm sharing a personnal opinion. Not allowed?
Surely is. But you must base your opinion on other studies, other ideas, so who pays for those?
Did you even read the article "paid" by the aviation sector? It perfectly makes sense to me.

There is a world the greens would like to see (ie less planes, less cars, more trains, more busses)... but next to that, there is the real world.

Your train connections might be great for those who live in city centers, but it's completely ridiculous for those who live out of cities. Europe is small, it takes less time to drive to FRA, CDG, AMS than taking your car to a city center train station (not even talking about public transportation) and then go to an airport with your luggage and fly to the other side of the world. People will drive. Point.

Flanker2
Posts: 1741
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Flanker2 »

Lux_avi wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 09:43
Flanker2 wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 03:10 Intermodal is very important in my opinion.
For someone from Antwerp, it's more convenient to fly out of AMS than it is from Charleroi or Eindhoven and if you use Thalys, almost as convenient as BRU.
That BRU is not set up for HSR is not the customer's problem.
In fact, I don't see why it's not set up for HSR after they spent zillions digging those tunnels.

The aviation of the future needs to start redefining itself.
Commerical for-profit aviation has failed in Belgium, in Europe and worldwide as government bail-outs were necessary to keep airlines afloat through the pandemic. Taxpayer money had to come to the rescue as investors weren't keen on giving back their profits of the past decade to save the airlines through the pandemic. This is not a new phenomenon, every X years, airlines face a crisis and need to be bailed out by taxpayers.
It's time to stop this charade and straight out nationalise airlines so that the money can be invested directly into transportation instead of making rich shareholders richer in good times and ask taxpayer bail outs in bad times. The EU should stop encouraging these scam schemes and start drawing an efficient, clean and organised pan-European transportation network.

Aviation is facing huge investment needs in the years ahead.
Forget fleet renewals, A220, A320 Neo, B737 Max, B787, A350. Ok they are progress in terms of fuel efficiency and noise pollution, but we're 10 years away from fusion energy demonstration and 15 years away from a transition to hydrogen.

It's time to unify transportation in Europe and stop this SN/LH vs AF/KLM vs IAG vs Ryanair vs Easyjet nonsense.

Time to go Zero on carbon across all modes of transport and stop funding stop-gap solutions.

Well Brussels Airlines never repaid previous loans they received from the taxpayer?.

Taxpayer money? In most cases, it was in form of LOANS with interests.
It's not quite the same as giving away taxpayer money!

Brussels Airlines received a LOAN of 290 millions.
How much money has been *GIVEN* to other small business in Belgium?

No need to comment the rest of your message, it's complete nonsense, as always.

Loans that never get repaid are subsidies. The technical term is non-reimbursable grant.
Brussels Airlines never repaid their start-up loans and they will never repay the "loan" that the Belgian government gave it to make it through the pandemic. Let's also not forget the thousands of passengers Brussels Airlines scr*wed by never reimbursing their tickets.

And by the way, Charleroi Airport and by extension its biggest customer Ryanair is also an endless pit of subsidies termed "capital injections" that end up balancing losses. I recall they needed to be saved recently to avert bankruptcy.

It's time to nationalise this system of scams ran by European oligarchs and invest in clean, efficient, democratic transportation.
If you have a problem with that, I hope your oligarch pays you enough to lobby for this broken system.

b720
Posts: 891
Joined: 04 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by b720 »

Government has no business in running an airline or any other business in any sector. Government brings in incompetence and corruption to any sector it runs. I do; however, agree that SN has failed. Government should not lend them again. If commercial banks find it a risky business to lend money to, proves the point that it isn’t viable.
I think that It should fold and allow other “profitable” airlines fill the void.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 23:44 Loans that never get repaid are subsidies. The technical term is non-reimbursable grant. Brussels Airlines never repaid their start-up loans and they will never repay the "loan" that the Belgian government gave it to make it through the pandemic.
The 287,1M is a loan: it's assured by Lufthansa (via SN Airholding actually).

Flanker2 wrote: 16 Jul 2022, 23:44 Let's also not forget the thousands of passengers Brussels Airlines scr*wed by never reimbursing their tickets.
There was an endless list of airlines who didn't refund, but offered a voucher. Brussels Airlines was one of them indeed. After intervention by European Commissioner Reynders, they all refunded.

b720
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Joined: 04 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by b720 »

I m still awaiting my refund (or voucher) 2 years on!!!
ExActky two years on..still nothing.. called zillion times, they keep saying it s approved and will be paid..

jerry
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Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 18:34

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by jerry »

For reference, I had 2 cancelled flights in March/April 2020 and got my cash refund in September 2020 (after the cash injection of the "loan").

nordikcam
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Location: Uccle

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by nordikcam »

jerry wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 11:57 For reference, I had 2 cancelled flights in March/April 2020 and got my cash refund in September 2020 (after the cash injection of the "loan").
Two cancelled flights too in 2020 ( march and april ) reimbursed in September...Bordeaux and Marrakech ! So I still fly SN...

b720
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by b720 »

July 2020 to Naples. Cancelled still no refund.

fcw
Posts: 765
Joined: 01 Nov 2006, 23:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by fcw »

b720 wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 11:38 I m still awaiting my refund (or voucher) 2 years on!!!
ExActky two years on..still nothing.. called zillion times, they keep saying it s approved and will be paid..
I had even worse: paid 100€, flight cancelled back in 2020, never got a refund, wanted to rebook on same route webprice 69 and they wanted to charge me 75 rebooking fees….
Recently same experience: bought return ticket, outbound cancelled made my own way, no refund and I just found out that my return booking has been cancelled because I didn’t fly outbound, no way they can activate the return again, unless I pay 300€…..

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Conti764 »

b720 wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 10:34 Government has no business in running an airline or any other business in any sector. Government brings in incompetence and corruption to any sector it runs. I do; however, agree that SN has failed. Government should not lend them again. If commercial banks find it a risky business to lend money to, proves the point that it isn’t viable.
I think that It should fold and allow other “profitable” airlines fill the void.
BRU will have massive losses in that case. A repeat of 2002 and onwards...

b720
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by b720 »

BRU will recover eventually when other airlines fill in the void. All European destinations will be covered by other airlines already serving BRU..adding frequencies, .. easy and Ryanair can expand.. their service is actually same if not superior to current SN. We won’t be missing much..north America as well..UA and AC will make up for the 3 destinations SN flies there.. The few flights a day to africa can be covered by ET rwandair maybe air Belgium might take over the profitable routes (o/d) DRC and some cities in west africa (popular with Belgian tourists)..
Keeping a dead venture alive isn’t tenable. SN has failed in creating a PROFITABLE Connecting HUb. Maybe BRU should focus on O/D for the local market and surrounding areas in the NL & F..

theeuropean
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by theeuropean »

b720 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 11:45 BRU will recover eventually when other airlines fill in the void. All European destinations will be covered by other airlines already serving BRU..adding frequencies, .. easy and Ryanair can expand.. their service is actually same if not superior to current SN. We won’t be missing much..north America as well..UA and AC will make up for the 3 destinations SN flies there.. The few flights a day to africa can be covered by ET rwandair maybe air Belgium might take over the profitable routes (o/d) DRC and some cities in west africa (popular with Belgian tourists)..
Keeping a dead venture alive isn’t tenable. SN has failed in creating a PROFITABLE Connecting HUb. Maybe BRU should focus on O/D for the local market and surrounding areas in the NL & F..
Perhaps, but there’s definitely going to be reduced destinations. Already with SN there is a strong lack of destinations in North America even with Star Alliance feed, so how do you expect UA and AC to add more destinations? BRU sandwiched between AMS and CDG and to a lesser extent LHR and FRA is struggling to attract carriers for more long-haul destinations. Europe is well covered but there will still be a massive decrease in frequency and if FR is going to come in what will happen in CRL? They won’t keep both bases open to compete with each other so intensively, it doesn’t make sense. KF is way too small to fill any real meaningful gap. Unless you want to wait 20 years all over again.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Atlantis »

Forget about FR. With all current cases with them and many strikes, it will be unlikely as they see Belgium/unions as unreliable.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by lumumba »

b720 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 11:45 BRU will recover eventually when other airlines fill in the void. All European destinations will be covered by other airlines already serving BRU..adding frequencies, .. easy and Ryanair can expand.. their service is actually same if not superior to current SN. We won’t be missing much..north America as well..UA and AC will make up for the 3 destinations SN flies there.. The few flights a day to africa can be covered by ET rwandair maybe air Belgium might take over the profitable routes (o/d) DRC and some cities in west africa (popular with Belgian tourists)..
Keeping a dead venture alive isn’t tenable. SN has failed in creating a PROFITABLE Connecting HUb. Maybe BRU should focus on O/D for the local market and surrounding areas in the NL & F..
If you lose the hub you will lose other airlines too for example ANA or UA to Chicago or like DHL that uses the SN flights(Africa),these flights will not be sustainable without the hub.
And you will lose all the transit pax from SN this would be a catastrophe.
Even if you have to subsidies SN you have to do it because if not you will lose much more.
Why can we subsidies some airports here in Belgium for 230 million every year that generates less than 1000 jobs!
Brussels Airlines is generating so much more and is vital for Brussels Airport.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Conti764 »

b720 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 11:45 BRU will recover eventually when other airlines fill in the void. All European destinations will be covered by other airlines already serving BRU..adding frequencies, .. easy and Ryanair can expand.. their service is actually same if not superior to current SN. We won’t be missing much..north America as well..UA and AC will make up for the 3 destinations SN flies there.. The few flights a day to africa can be covered by ET rwandair maybe air Belgium might take over the profitable routes (o/d) DRC and some cities in west africa (popular with Belgian tourists)..
Keeping a dead venture alive isn’t tenable. SN has failed in creating a PROFITABLE Connecting HUb. Maybe BRU should focus on O/D for the local market and surrounding areas in the NL & F..
Quite unrealistic imho... We saw what happened in 2002, airlines flooded BRU to channel local pax on their own flights from neighbouring airports, international flights will crumble, Africa ops will go to CDG, FRA or AMS. Some small TATL operations will remain with UA flying smaller equipment,...

Loosing your home carrier is a disaster for an airport like BRU...

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Atlantis »

Conti764 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 21:17
b720 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 11:45 BRU will recover eventually when other airlines fill in the void. All European destinations will be covered by other airlines already serving BRU..adding frequencies, .. easy and Ryanair can expand.. their service is actually same if not superior to current SN. We won’t be missing much..north America as well..UA and AC will make up for the 3 destinations SN flies there.. The few flights a day to africa can be covered by ET rwandair maybe air Belgium might take over the profitable routes (o/d) DRC and some cities in west africa (popular with Belgian tourists)..
Keeping a dead venture alive isn’t tenable. SN has failed in creating a PROFITABLE Connecting HUb. Maybe BRU should focus on O/D for the local market and surrounding areas in the NL & F..
Quite unrealistic imho... We saw what happened in 2002, airlines flooded BRU to channel local pax on their own flights from neighbouring airports, international flights will crumble, Africa ops will go to CDG, FRA or AMS. Some small TATL operations will remain with UA flying smaller equipment,...

Loosing your home carrier is a disaster for an airport like BRU...
Wishful thinking indeed. You will lose everything if no home carrier. As the frequenties are not yet full in place for the long haul, and with lack of a home carrier, they will simply turn the back to you.
O/D should be much more important.
They will not grand extra slots to foreign companies to fill the gap. From where you will have your feeder/transfer pax??
It's thanks to SN and it's role in Star that the transfer % is almost at the level as before.
Changing very often the management is also not helping. Especially not with unions who don't trust management. Each new manager has other ideas and costs money.
Stability is crucial now. Sitting around the table and talk as responsible people.
KF will not be a help as their finance is also not optimal and they simply don't have the fleet.
This time, and let's hope it will not happen, will be much more difficult to create again a new company.

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