The SN short- and medium-haul fleet

Post by **sn26567** » 01 Jul 2003, 10:05

The current SN short- and medium-haul fleet - not counting the A330s for African routes - is made exclusively of BAe 146s, ARJ 85s, ARJ 100s and A319s. All planes between 80 and 120 seats.

On the other hand the load factor is only slightly above 50%.

This shows that the fleet is totally inadequate. Load factors under 60% of above 85% are both not normal for a well-run airline. In the first case, it shows planes are too large for the airline's traffic; in the second case, they are too small to accommodate the existing passenger load.

The problem stems from the fact that all SN planes have similar capacities. I have travelled yesterday in an ARJ 100 that was almost full. Very well! Buit in previous flights I have been on an ARJ 100 with only 25-30 people aboard. In such cases, an airline with a varied fleet would switch to a smaller plane, like the Embraer RJ 145 (this is what happened to me yesterday when BA replaved the normally scheduled ARJ 100 by an ERJ 145).

My suggestion thus is that SN BA shoud get rid of the old BAe 146s, that Bart doesn't like anyway, and replace them with smaller, more economical planes (ERJ 135/145; CRJ 100/200, ...).

What's your opinion, guys (and girls

)?

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 01 Jul 2003, 11:01

I totally agree with you André

Chris

meerkat · Post by **meerkat** » 01 Jul 2003, 11:22

I tend to agree with you but I guess that currently costs are the big concern and by acquiring other types of aircraft the costs spiral upwards. The cost of having flight crews/maintenance crew available for more than one type of aircraft can be much greater than with single type operations.

The load factor thing is interesting as whenever I hear of people travelling with SN they tell the same story - full or almost full aircraft. Maybe I don't talk with the right people! Bart will have a much better idea than me on this!

My first ever flight with SN (or was it DAT then?) in February 2002 was to Munich and back with the outbound load of 14 on a RJ85, however the return flight was a RJ 100 and was almost full. In the early days some of the flights were not timed too well and this had(has) an effect on loads.

Meerkat

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 01 Jul 2003, 11:37

The load factor thing is interesting as whenever I hear of people travelling with SN they tell the same story - full or almost full aircraft.

I guess you hear many people telling you from their trip to the UK, don't you??
Because as far as I know the flights to the UK work very well.
I also think that SNBA is increasing its loadfactor every month, even in todays economic situation, and that's a good sign isn't it?
Hope the loadfactors of june will soon be online on aea.

Regards
Chris

Post by **sn26567** » 01 Jul 2003, 12:49

Avro wrote:
The load factor thing is interesting as whenever I hear of people travelling with SN they tell the same story - full or almost full aircraft.
I guess you hear many people telling you from their trip to the UK, don't you??
Because as far as I know the flights to the UK work very well.

Not so long ago, I flew to Hamburg and back, and on both flights the load factor was less than 33%.

I guess that codesharing helps fill the flights. This is the case for the UK, not for Germany.

Post by **luchtzak** » 01 Jul 2003, 14:57

Hello,

here is my opinion about this: SN Brussels Airlines has a very flexible fleet allready in my opininon. They can switch aircrafts from 82 seats to 97 seats and if a lot of passengers are available on 1 flight they will try to switch to an A319. I prefer a 75% filled RJ 85 (62 pax) then an overbooked Embraer 130 or Embraer 145.

In the future (2005) they are looking at other planes and I even heard A318 !! and Embraer 170 and as one of the candidates and they can carry the same amount of passengers.

Just my thought

ciao,

Bart

Lyulka · Post by **Lyulka** » 05 Jul 2003, 13:01

I will not support a purchase of the a318! It's a nice aircaft, but far too much money for the seats you'll get. The only reason Airbus developed this aircraft was that it is now able to deliver aircraft of almost every size, and offering operators of an already airbus fleet, the attractiveness of aircraft commonality. For SNBA I don't think it's a good reason to purchase the aircraft because it just hasn't got an almost all-airbus fleet. I think the new Embrear will be a much better choice. Look at the American low-cost carrier jetBlue which operates / will operate a fleet of about 100 A320's, and still, for lower capacity they ordered the Embraer instead of the Airbus (which had to be a smack in the face for Airbus).

BBKing · Post by **BBKing** » 05 Jul 2003, 13:47

I agree with that.

The A318 wouldn't be a good choice because it is too heavy. The purpose designed Embraer or Bombardier planes would be a better choice.

I like Brasilian football and Brasilian girls, but actually I prefer the Canadian RJ-series. They are good looking and fly very smooth.

Last year I made a trip on a LH Bombardier RJ (Brussels-Munich) and it really was a pleasure.

BBKing · Post by **BBKing** » 05 Jul 2003, 13:50

After having posted my reply and reading it on the forum, I noticed that in Luchtzak's eyes I am a "Embraer 170 member" ...

8O

Post by **luchtzak** » 05 Jul 2003, 14:10

BBKing,

this is just a ranking-system according to your amount of postings

Check https://www.aviation24.be/modules.php?name ... file=ranks

The more postings you have the higher your type of aircraft! E.G.: AVRO is an Airbus 330-member

ciao,

Bart

dolfke · Post by **dolfke** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:10

Well for those people who really want to know. Currently the SNBA management are looking at 4 competitors.

Embraer 170/190 series
Canadair whatever series
Boeing 717
Airbus 318

Canadair will most probably loose out because they are not comfortable for the pax at all (only 14% of the passengers would be able to stow their trolleys in overhead bins and we already have huge problems with that in our avro's)

Airbus 318 is too heavy and thus too costly to land (landing taxes and such) and why buy a 318 if the 319 gets you more seats for almost the sae cost (I think)

Embraer is one of the lead suspects, but as you probably heard they are having some problems getting a certification on time, and the 190 series isn't out yet (which would be the one we would be the most interested in as it has roughly the number of seats required) but the cabin isn(t very big either for the pax (compared to the avro)

And then boeing with their hideous aircraft (if you can call it that). Apparantly they are very interested in that as it is the most comfortable for the pax. aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrgh
Plus boeing is really making some really sweet deals there (ok i have this from rumor, so don't shoot me if it's wrong: free leasing for 3 years and free training for the crew. It seems a lot to me but that is what I heard in the grapevine). So this might just be the prime candidate for the managers.
Hey guys wake up: there is a reason Boeing is so desperate to sell it to us, nobody else is buying it (yeah Olympic is a really good reference

). Plus I already heard from a lot of cockpit crew that they would rather go fly somewhere else than fly that outdated plane (face it it's just an old dc-9 with some new avionics), but then again when did they ever listen to us pilots

So these are the contenders. Gentlemen place your bets

Nice flying ya all.
Dolf

BBKing · Post by **BBKing** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:17

Please NO B717's !!!!!! I really don't like them !!!!

I found the Bombardier comfortable and smooth actually.

And what about the Fokker 100: lot's of them are going to be parked in the desert, so they're cheap !!

Maybe Luchtzak can make a poll about the plane SNBA should buy ...

dolfke · Post by **dolfke** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:24

yeah the fokker 100 might be nice but why buy an old plane now that's out of production and you just know you're going to have problems with finding spare parts.
Plus old planes mean more maintenance would be needed (it's called the bathtub curve or something like that, I could look it up in my schoolbooks but I'd rather never touch them again

) and that's one of the things we want to avoid.
And passengers know enough about aviation these days to know those planes are old, and everyone likes new toys (guys do anyway)

Nice flying ya all
Dofl

liebensd · Post by **liebensd** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:47

Dolfke,

Maybe is the new Fokker 70 a solution. A Dutch company called Rekkof want to take the Fokker 70 back in production.

Greetz,

Dave

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:48

That's a very interesting story Dolfke. But I've just one question. Cand The B717 fly to destinations like Florence, because otherwise SNBA would have a problem??

Chris

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:52

Maybe is the new Fokker 70 a solution. A Dutch company called Rekkof want to take the Fokker 70 back in production.

That could be a solution, but they need the new airplanes in 2005, and I don't think that the new Fokker will be finished and certified untill then.

Greetz
Chris

BBKing · Post by **BBKing** » 05 Jul 2003, 15:56

Not only the revival of the Fokker 70 production line is considered, but also the restart of the Fokker 100 production.

The fact that major American airlines used the Fokker 100 for many years might prove the value and the quality of the plane and its design.

And as far as I know, both the Fokker 70 and Fokker 100 are certified for short runway operations.

Anyway ... the decision of the fleet renewal will be a difficult one. I'm glad that it's not my job.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 05 Jul 2003, 16:03

the decision of the fleet renewal will be a difficult one

You're right, and I hope we'll know soon.
I'm not sure but I think that the decision will be made in the end of this year.

Chris
:drink:

Post by **luchtzak** » 05 Jul 2003, 16:20

All right guys ! This is getting a really interesting topic!

I'm in the crewroom getting ready for work! Maybe André can edit his first message in the topic and add a voting in it.... That would be really great! Otherwise I will do it when I'm back at home!

ciao,

Bart

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 05 Jul 2003, 16:27

Have a nice flight Bart

Aviation24.be

The SN short- and medium-haul fleet

What aircraft would you favour for the extension of SN BA's fleet

The SN short- and medium-haul fleet

THE HALF FINALS