Connection missed BRU-FRA-VNO

[webstermc]

My wife missed her connection tonight in FRA to Vilnius because the flight from Brussels was delayed.

She was at the gate in FRA 5 minutes before departing time, but they refused to let her in. "Too late, gate already closed".

What can she do? What are her rights? I'm reading she can have a compensation of 250 euro for this, but what with hotel costs? Because it was the last flight of the day to Vilnius...

Can the hotel in Vilnius also be compensated?

[sn26567]

That's one for "Passenger": he is the specialist for such cases. If he doesn't reply in this thread, send him a PM.

[Passenger]

My wife missed her connection tonight in FRA to Vilnius because the flight from Brussels was delayed.

She was at the gate in FRA 5 minutes before departing time, but they refused to let her in. "Too late, gate already closed".

What can she do? What are her rights? I'm reading she can have a compensation of 250 euro for this, but what with hotel costs? Because it was the last flight of the day to Vilnius...

Can the hotel in Vilnius also be compensated?

Any more details? Names of the two airlines (BRU-FRA will be LH, but FRA-VNO?), delay time BRU-FRA, reason for the delay? Eventually flight numbers?

And how were the two flights booked: one ticket? Seperate bookings?

And were did you read that she will get a 250 € compensation? Did the airline gave her a letter?

(edited with an additional question)

[webstermc]

I found the 250 euro's on the internet (I think it was a page of the EU, but I can't find it now), I'm also not aware of a letter (didn't ask)

Flights were booked together. Booked with SN (but all operated by LH).

It were flights
- SN7009 (LH1019) BRU - FRA 19:05 => 20:10
- SN7099 FRA - VIL 20:55 => 23:55

Plane left BRU at 19:44, landed at 20:25, but was only at the gate in FRA at 20.35. She ran for het next flight, but was too late

They booked her a hotel (with dinner) and booked her on the next flight this morning (leaving FRA at 10h30). But she planned several meetings during whole day and will go back to BRU on tuesday evening. Now in stead of 2 days of customer contact, she only will have 1d and 2h (won't be at the office before 15u today..)

But my questions
a) can she have a compensation for this (was not offered)?
b) if not, she booked a hotel for sunday night in Vilnius, can this also be compensated?)

Many thanks for clearing this out. It is the first time my wife ever missed a connection flight since she started flying regularly last year.

[webstermc]

Ah, I found also this info on lufthansa website

http://www.lufthansa.com/online/portal/ ... 61511&l=en

If you are involuntarily or voluntarily denied boarding, you have the right to an alternative flight or to a refund and compensation which can also be paid as a cheque, by bank transfer or, with your agreement, in the form of a voucher. The compensation shall be paid in cash, cheque or transfer or with your agreement in form of vouchers. The amount of the compensation depends on the distance of the schedule flight or the alternative flight proposed to you. Compensations amount to:
html_list
250 € for flights up to 1.500 km
400 € for flights between 1.500 km and 3.500 and intra-Community flights of more than 1.500 km,
600 € for flights of more then 3.500 km.
If you are offered an alternative flight, the scheduled arrival time of which does not exceed 2 hours in respect of flights up to 1.500 km, 3 hours in respect of flights between 1.500k m and 3.500 km as well as intra-Community flights of more than 1.500 km, and 4 hours in respect of all other flights, the above, mentioned compensation amounts can be reduced by 50%, i.e.125 €, 200 € and 300 €.

[Inquirer]

Ah, yes, Lufthansa is notoriously strict on boarding times: don't expect to still get on their plane if you only show up at the time of departure, even if it is still at the gate!
Other airlines sometimes seem to be willing to wait a few minutes if they know you're on your way, especially for their evening flights, but not them: the German habit for precision, for sure?

From my own experience as a frequently connecting passenger, Lufthansa will get you a good hotel and a nice diner (which seems to have been the case indeed), but you're definitely not entitled to any sort of damage compensation for the missed business opportunities arising from the delay. Logically, I'd say, as those opportunities are not bought with the ticket to start with?

As to the denied boarding compensation: isn't that just valid when they refuse you at the point of departure, so in your case, Brussels? Here, your wife wasn't denied the boarding in BRU, she missed her connection in FRA due to delay. I'm far from a legal expert, but I have never thought of it to be automatically valid under these conditions since she was accepted to start her journey as booked and they took care of her as it extended beyond the planning: where is the denial then?

Interesting question however!

[Poiu]

She will arrive more than 3 hours late at her final destination, so she can claim the 250€.

[Didymus]

Indeed. In 2013 the European Court of Justice ruled that the 3 hour rule also applies to missed connections.

[Passenger]

Not that fast please. It depends on the reason why BRU-FRA was delayed.

[Didymus]

Well, the airline still has to prove it was because of extraordinary circumstances and also there, the ECJ limited what is acceptable as extraordinary circumstance.

[Passenger]

Lufthansa will always have to pay for hotel & meals, no matter what the reason for the delay was. But they don’t have to pay the 250 € compensation if the delay for the incoming LH-1018 FRA-BRU and/or the outgoing LH-1019 BRU-FRA was caused by extraordinary circumstances.

According to Flightradar24.com, the aircraft D-AIDQ (A321) arrived a bit late from the previous flight LH1018 FRA-BRU: ETA in BRU was 17h55, actual arrival time in BRU was 18h20. LH1018 was scheduled for ETD 19h05, but only took off at 19h44. That was a 85 minutes turnaround time, and even with taxi-time deducted, it’s too much for a normal A 321 Lufthansa turnaround.

So something must have happened in Brussels. If the delay was caused by LH’s own will or own error, the delay was not “extraordinary circumstances” and the 250 € indeed applies. Luckily, “extraordinary circumstances” is limited here: a decision from the airport authority (example to postpone the slot), a weather related delay (example limiting the runway use), a sudden illness of a crew member.

Perhaps, it was LH’s decision to delay the outgoing flight to wait for a group who had a late arrival from another flight into BRU? Perhaps there was a delay with the loaders or fuel supplier? Perhaps they forgot to bring the the coffee? LH's own decision or error, hence 250 €.

The reason for the delay from the previous flight LH-1018 can also be an extraordinary circumstance for LH to avoid the 250 €. But only same as above: weather related, slot delayed, sudden illness of a crew member.

- - -

Time to conclude. Lufthansa knows what happened: it’s all-in their flight logs. In case a National Enforcement Body for EU-Rule 261/2004 joins in, Lufthansa has to give proof to them of what happened. That’s enough not to lie to you about the reason for the delay. They can't tell you a crew member was sick, and tell a NEB that they waited for a group that was delayed on an incoming flight. But when your reply then reaches the NEB, LH is in for some trouble. So they won't lie to you about the reason.

My suggestion: contact them, and ask what the reason for the delay of the outgoing was, stating that the question is asked cfr EU-Rule 261/2004. If that reason is subject to doubt, play it safe and don’t ask for the 250 €. Just ask for a free return flight BRU-VNO, in Economy, including taxes. That’s a legal possibility to settle 261/2004, and LH will accept that more easily then a pay out. And perhaps you can already mention in your first contact with them that you're willing to accept a free ticket as compensation.

(edited -> typo)

[webstermc]

Passenger,

Thanks for the detailed info! We now know what we can do an what we can expect.

We will contact Lufthansa and see what they say.

Thanks!

[convair]

And just for info, there is a direct SN flight BRU-Vilnius every day.

[webstermc]

And just for info, there is a direct SN flight BRU-Vilnius every day.

We know, but when taking the direct flight on sunday (13h30), she had to leave to the airport at 10h30 and she would have lost the whole sunday (and a boring afternoon/evening in a hotel in vilnius). She would also have missed a family acitivity at noon.

With the late lufhtansa flight (which arrived just before midnight), she was able to do the family activity and avoid a boring night at the hotel.

Plan was to be in Vilnius at monday morning (10h), because then she had the first customer meetings. Now she will have her first meeting at 15h00, She is missing almost a whole day...

(she arrived at 13h30 in Vilinius today, so with a delay of > 13hours)

Whe se comes back on tuesday, it is the direct flight from Brussels Airlines.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Interesting,please keep us informed about the outcome please !
THx

CXB

[convair]

And just for info, there is a direct SN flight BRU-Vilnius every day.

We know, but when taking the direct flight on sunday (13h30), she had to leave to the airport at 10h30 and she would have lost the whole sunday (and a boring afternoon/evening in a hotel in vilnius). She would also have missed a family acitivity at noon.

With the late lufhtansa flight (which arrived just before midnight), she was able to do the family activity and avoid a boring night at the hotel.

Plan was to be in Vilnius at monday morning (10h), because then she had the first customer meetings. Now she will have her first meeting at 15h00, She is missing almost a whole day...

(she arrived at 13h30 in Vilinius today, so with a delay of > 13hours)

Whe se comes back on tuesday, it is the direct flight from Brussels Airlines.

No need to justify your choice of course.

[webstermc]

No compensation...

Thank you for your email response dated 26 April 2016.

It was much to our regret that your flight from Brussels to Frankfurt did not depart as scheduled causing you to miss your connecting flight to Vilnius on 24 April 2016. Of course, we fully understand your frustration as we know how important it is for a journey to proceed smoothly. Please accept our sincere apologies for any inconvenience this situation may have caused you.
Kindly allow us to explain that Lufthansa flight LH1019 was delayed due late arrival of the aircraft from the previous station because of Air Traffic Flow Management restrictions. We have no influence over these measures as they are imposed by the local authorities. In circumstances such as this, it is the responsibility of the airline to ensure that adequate care is provided and that your Contract of Carriage is completed on the next available flight. In this case, we were pleased to note that you were provided with hotel voucher and an alternative flight to Vilnius on the next day.
From your correspondence, we understand that you are requesting to receive compensation. We ask for your understanding that we are unable to comply with your request as the delay is outside our sphere of influence.

We realise that this may not be the response you were anticipating and regret that we are unable to compensate as we are obliged to adhere to the applicable regulations in this matter. However, we hope you will give us the opportunity to regain your trust in our services by choosing to fly with us again in the future.

[Poiu]

A couple of remarks:
- inbound flight to BRU was 25 minutes late. This probably resulted in missing the slot for the outbound, so LH can't hide behind the slot.
- a small slot on a Sunday evening between two busy airports is not exceptional
I would not agree and tell them you will contact a consumer organisation to ask for support.

[sn26567]

I agree with Poiu. If you look at the history of that aeroplane (A321 D-AIDQ) on 24 April, before going to BRU the aircraft flew to BUD, and both outbound and inbound flights were on time (LH1338/9). Furthermore, there was a 1 hr 5 min time in FRA to make the rotation: that flight should never have left late from FRA.

You could contact one of the organisations helping stranded passengers (they usually take 30% of the compensation if you win, nothing if you lose), e.g. refund.me or AirHelp. Both have apps for smartphones where you can introduce your claim.

[Passenger]

I wonder if those incasso firms will be interested. The BRU-FRA was not delayed by more then 3 hours, so no other passengers have claimed a compensation. 150 € indemnity per person. One person. That's 45 € commission for them. For lawyers, that's very very little.

I will reply later with another possibility - no time now.