NRT - BRU - NRT gap

[travellover]

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/All-Nippon-Airways

Is the NRT - BRU - NRT project always in the pipeline for ANA ?

Knowing that there is a gap to fill in on the Japan - Belgium - Japan route since 2001, that ANA (the presumed * candidate number one) has these days 23 dreamliners in its fleet and 9 orders. Where do we stand with a direct regular air link between both countries ? Daily or almost. It is in an air pocket for years. Any ideas or informations ?

[sean1982]

As far as I know NRT was one of the routes where Sabena was actually losing money on by operating it (like JNB) So I don't know it will be very attractive to anyone? :/

[itami]

Travellover, we had a topic on this in 2012 : ANA from Tokyo to Brussels in April 2013.
Till today it hasn't been more than 'Wishful thinking' from the Belgian side.

[sean1982]

anyway plenty of connections in the future via DXB to Japan.

[BrightCedars]

Seeing the state of the Japanese economy I would rather wonder if Asiana would return to BRU in the near future. Basically the way I see things there is enough potential in 3 Asian destinations for SN to operate. One can give also ANA the benefit of the doubt seeing the operational difficulties associated with the Dreamliner's entry into service.

People need to stop thinking of the market situation like it was about 15 years ago. The market has changed, the players have changed, the tools have changed. SN is not the SN of back then and an A332 (or even A333) of today is not an A342 of yesteryear.

Frankly I think SN should run HKG, SEL and TYO, the first one being more delicate due to the lack of local alliance partner. Problem is of course this needs money to take the risk and to run the operation which I'm not seeing happen these days.

Oh, and people should stop thinking that business travelers (and I do not mean the very few fat cats that fill up First Class cabins or the hordes in subsidized cattle) would prefer to fly BRU-AUH/DOH/DXB-TYO instead of flying there and back nonstop.

[travellover]

Is there opportunity for a (high-yield?) market today (almost in 2014)?
If we compare the distance and flight time between two potentially routes.

1. BRU - DXB

Flight time 6h 32min
Time of departure 06.12.2013 12:40 GMT +01:00
Time of arrival 06.12.2013 22:12 GMT +04:00
Flight distance 5163.88km (6h 54 return flight)

+ DXB - NRT

Flight time 9h 51min
Time of departure 06.12.2013 12:50 GMT +04:00
Time of arrival 07.12.2013 03:41 GMT +09:00
Flight distance 7950.95km (10h 23 return flight)

2. BRU - NRT

Flight time 11h 41min
Time of departure 06.12.2013 12:50 GMT +01:00
Time of arrival 07.12.2013 08:31 GMT +09:00
Flight distance 9486.16km

11h41 flight time (12h 17 return flight)

There is a significative difference of 13114.83 km and 16h23 flight time via DXB vs 9486.16 km and 11h41 non stop flight time.

[Inquirer]

people should stop thinking that business travelers (and I do not mean the very few fat cats that fill up First Class cabins or the hordes in subsidized cattle) would prefer to fly BRU-AUH/DOH/DXB-TYO instead of flying there and back nonstop.

I think that is a fair remark indeed.

I don't have a good idea about the customer base of any of the arabian peninsula's carriers between Western Europe and Japan, but given their commercial strategy of systematically undercutting others on price, I am under the impression they are relying on the price sensitive segments of the market, being economy passengers or tourists willing to pay for business class comfort of such long flights, but in fact very few frequent flyers.

Somebody who's flying to Japan on say an almost weekly basis for work is not going to do so via any hub which is hours off the routing for the simple reason he'll be loosing too much time, even if that is cheaper, so indeed, depending the demand from such clients, there may be a lucrative market for a non-stop flight from Tokio to Brussels, operated by a medium sized plane with a large premium cabin.

Does anybody know what the cabin composition is of the 787 at ANA?
Or related, does anybody have data about Emirates/Qatar/etc Frequent Flyer programs? How much of its members have reached the highest status level? Where do they live and on what routes are those member flying them? It should really show you if they draw their succes from few corporate yet frequent clients, or rather from many individual yet occasional customers.

[Flanker2]

Good post BrightCedars.
Like I said many times BOS of 15 years ago isn't the BOS of today.

Similarily, the BRU-NRT of today shows a very different map.
Sabena did lose money on BRU-NRT because they were much more expensive than KL, AZ and often even LH. Tickets went for 35.000BEF return, where KL and others would offer them for 28.000 BEF through one of their hubs. SN were equally expensive out of other hubs, hence they had to fill their planes with Japanese tour operators, which pay rock-bottom fares.
On top of that, Sabena combined it with a stop in Moscow. This wasn't attractive and it certainly wasn't efficient.


Under SN's current much sharper yield management, they will be able to offer a much better balance between the full fares and group fares. SN can also combine this with federal subsidies and airport incentives. Japanese tourists bring in a lot of money to Belgian gift shops, high-end hotels and retail, so this must be a good basis for a request for incentives.

Also, if SN do it, they better take it all the way and fly to HND instead of NRT. The Japanese government will certainly grant them a slot. AF and others ask for quite significant a premium on HND flights.
For this route, an A343 would be required. The A332 would have a significant payload hit on the way back. The economics wouldn't be as good as for the A343.

NH wants to fly to BRU and the initial plan was in 2013... but it was subject to the B788's smooth entry into service and reliability in service. Now they are waiting for their second batch of deliveries to launch new routes, and I'm quite confident BRU will be one of them, if no other airline do it first.
That's if NH doesn't see new opportunities first.

ANA 787's are very premium heavy. But they have been having trouble filling those, as Japanese premium pax are avoiding the B787's on intercontinental journeys, due to frequent delays and bad press. Japanese are very sensitive towards reliability and safety. Even more so when they can afford to pay premiums.

[Inquirer]

ANA 787's are very premium heavy.

Thank you.
By that they would have the ideal plane to fly this route with, IMHO.

I know there's a JV between Lufthansa and ANA, but i don't know if other airlines of them are also included in it? Is LX? Austrian? Brussels? I suppose they will if and when ANA comes to BRU as they'll want to make use of all the feed they can get at this end of the line?

[airbuske]

ANA 787's are very premium heavy.

Thank you.
By that they would have the ideal plane to fly this route with, IMHO.

I know there's a JV between Lufthansa and ANA, but i don't know if other airlines of them are also included in it? Is LX? Austrian? Brussels?

First there was a JV between LH & ANA, Austrian airlines and Swiss has joint the JV afterwards

[itami]

Seeing the state of the Japanese economy I would rather wonder if Asiana would return to BRU in the near future.

BrightCedars, I guess you mean ANA ? Asiana is Korean !

[Inquirer]

ANA 787's are very premium heavy.

Thank you.
By that they would have the ideal plane to fly this route with, IMHO.

I know there's a JV between Lufthansa and ANA, but i don't know if other airlines of them are also included in it? Is LX? Austrian? Brussels?

First there was a JV between LH & ANA, Austrian airlines and Swiss has joint the JV afterwards

So no Brussels (yet)?
Probably because there's currently no need for it, given the lack of links?
I should expect them to join this JV as soon as any flights take place, so we might have to keep an eye on anything surrounding it for hints as to what's coming.
What's the name of the JV, btw?

Ive been browsing the web a bit, and I saw ANA has their 787 used to Europe fitted as follows:
46 flatbed business class seats
112 standard economy seats
That sure is the kind of premium heavy plane needed for a BRU-NRT route!

[travellover]

Seeing the state of the Japanese economy I would rather wonder if Asiana would return to BRU in the near future.

BrightCedars, I guess you mean ANA ? Asiana is Korean !

Asiana came to Brussels in 1995 and ended this passenger service around 2000. ANA never did, it has a code-sharing with Sabena.

[airbuske]

What's the name of the JV, btw?

J+ Europe/Japan joint venture

[sn26567]

anyway plenty of connections in the future via DXB to Japan.

Via DXB? Big detour, plus at least two hours layover time in DXB:



BRU-NRT great circle: 5892 mi
BRU-NRT via DXB: 8169 mi

Businessmen will not like it!

Does anybody know what the cabin composition is of the 787 at ANA?

In intercontinental economy, ANA is one of the rare companies to have a 2-4-2 seating, vs. 3-3-3 for most other airlines

[travellover]

On top of that, Sabena combined it with a stop in Moscow. This wasn't attractive and it certainly wasn't efficient.

Sabena used to fly direct between BRU and NRT since Russia authorized the skimming through over its territory for the flights between Europe and the Far East in the early nineties.
Previously, the air route towards NRT overflew the north pole with a DC 10-30 and made a stopover at ANC.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/caribb/5418960422/
http://www.departedflights.com/NRT83intro.html
viewtopic.php?t=45149&p=250699

[travellover]

* TG began to fly between BRU - BKK two years ago.
Does anyone know what is the current catchment area (on a daily or a weekly base) for a direct flight from BRU to NRT and NRT to BRU (for a * airline) ?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45164&start=80

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07 ... 60458.html

A new article about Thai's fleet improvement programme. And some information about new destinations. According to Thai they finally decided to fly to BRU (ahaid of other new destinations they are thinking of) because it's an important catchment area and they saw that at least 40 pax on each flight from FRA to Bangkok originated in Brussels/Belgium.

40 pax per flight each day? That's 80 pax a day via FRA only on TG flights (they fly 2x daily from FRA)? Or do they mean each flight from FRA? Then you'll have to include the LH flight also... (which brings the total to 120pax a day)

Anyway 80 pax a day via FRA to BKK seams quite a good number...

[Flanker2]

Sabena used to fly direct between BRU and NRT since Russia authorized the skimming through over its territory for the flights between Europe and the Far East in the early nineties.
Previously, the air route towards NRT overflew the north pole with a DC 10-30 and made a stopover at ANC.

Are you sure?
I remember being on a A342 or A343 and sitting in Moscow several times in 1996-1999 besides early 1990's, to/from NRT.
The aircraft was full with elderly Japanes tourists in Y, but quite a few businessmen from both sides at the front. SN's A340 was quite uncomfortable in Y, with that box by the feet at the window seat. They contained the equipment to run the audio entertainment.
I preferred the KL B744's, even though the seats were less spacy and the panels were making that annoying shimy noise because they weren't tightened as they were supposed to be.

[Established02]

I can't find visual evidence, but I believe that BRU-NRT-SVO-BRU was also operated by B743 for some time.

HND 1972
ANC 1984

[Flanker2]

I can confirm that. I've flown many BRU-SVO-NRT sectors on Sabena B743's in the early nineties. Towards the end it was more or less always a A340.