BRU 25R/07L in August 2013

[airazurxtror]

A folder has been delivered today to the houses of my neighbourhood, to warn about this summer works on 25R/07L.

That runway will be out of use (estimated, not certain, depending on weather et alia) :
- fully :from 1st to 14th of August 2013
- in part, with some take-offs being possible : from 15 to 24 August
The works on 25R/07L :
- renovation of the water evacuation system
- complete renovation of one of the main accesses to the runway
- complete renovation of the ground lights including the LED replacing the halogen lighting
- annual maintenance work
Information before and during the works available at
www.runwayworks.be
Twitter : www.twitter.com/brusselsairport

Better not use BRU in August if at all possible : last time there were such works, heavy delays happened - my own experience.

[sn26567]

This was already announced one month ago, here on Luchtzak: viewtopic.php?p=278301#p278301

[Inquirer]

I think there are less flights during this holiday period anyway?
i certainly can't remember having experienced much problems in the past because of routine work like this?
FWIW- Brussels seems to be coping fairly well without the usual runway for departures the past couple of weeks because of the continuous easterly winds. I don't know how frequent you fly, but I had a total of 8 trips on LH/SWISS or Brussels in MAR alone and only one delay (due to de-icing), which is a job well done in my eyes?

[airazurxtror]

i certainly can't remember having experienced much problems in the past because of routine work like this?

I do. I don't often fly to/from BRU, but I did in August 2008. There were also works in progress on a runway, I don't remember which one.
The Flybe Dash8-800 arrived late from Manchester and departed just 2 hours late - we were told it was because of the traffic congestion at BRU.
On the flight back, an Embraer 145, we first had to wait for 30 min near 23L at Manchester, before getting a slot at Brussels; and on arrival, we went all the way to Scherpenheuvel before heading back to Zaventem, where we landed 40 min late.

[Stij]

..., we went all the way to Scherpenheuvel before heading back to Zaventem...

That s not that abnormal...

Cheers,

Stij

[Sabena320]

Delays during these works happen frequently. In 2006 when they used for a time only 25R for both departures and landings, we were in the hold (flight AA88) for about half an hour before we were able to land due to traffic.

[AirOpinion]

Some delays exist though when for examole runway 02 is in use...
Once we had a 30min slot due to weather in Bru! Looked out of the window... Cavok! Went to tarmac... Bearly 15 planes on the ground at the normal sta...

[Atco EBBR]

A slot due to weather is quite often due to the wind. So it may be CAVOK, but if the wind is unfavorable for 25L/R, there will be a reduced capacity, and thus delays...

[Unilitha2]

Can we then expect more nice take off on 07R or are those going to be mainly from 02/20 ?

[AirOpinion]

A slot due to weather is quite often due to the wind. So it may be CAVOK, but if the wind is unfavorable for 25L/R, there will be a reduced capacity, and thus delays...

At that time wind was around 5kt... that's almost nothing!

[shockcooling]

Some delays exist though when for examole runway 02 is in use...
Once we had a 30min slot due to weather in Bru! Looked out of the window... Cavok! Went to tarmac... Bearly 15 planes on the ground at the normal sta...

Out of own experience, a slot can sometimes be imposed for other reasons than arrivals (eg.airspace/departures). It's sometimes not clearly stated to the crew and therefore a wrong cause is sometimes used for explaining the delay...

Anyway, in BRU they like to spread out all a/c all over Belgian airspace before landing on the 02, resulting in a lot of circling around for no reason....

[Atco EBBR]

A slot due to weather is quite often due to the wind. So it may be CAVOK, but if the wind is unfavorable for 25L/R, there will be a reduced capacity, and thus delays...

At that time wind was around 5kt... that's almost nothing!

That's true, limit is 7 kt tailwind. Can you tell me what time of day this was? F.i. if this was during the arrival peak, we usually wait for that to end before switching runways. Another possibility is that the win at 1000 or 2000ft was still quite strong...

[Atco EBBR]

Anyway, in BRU they like to spread out all a/c all over Belgian airspace before landing on the 02, resulting in a lot of circling around for no reason....

This is in fact because the positioning of the arrival and departure streams in and out of BRU is optimized for 25R/L. For example, arrivals from the east (via FLO) will make a loop of brussels city for a left hand circuit on RWY02, whereas if it's 25L/R, they go from FLO direct to 10-15nm final.

[shockcooling]

Anyway, in BRU they like to spread out all a/c all over Belgian airspace before landing on the 02, resulting in a lot of circling around for no reason....

This is in fact because the positioning of the arrival and departure streams in and out of BRU is optimized for 25R/L. For example, arrivals from the east (via FLO) will make a loop of brussels city for a left hand circuit on RWY02, whereas if it's 25L/R, they go from FLO direct to 10-15nm final.

Optimized? London is optimized with 6 busy airports covering a smaller area than Belgium.
What's the reason of optimising the airspace only for 25L/R, we've been 'looping' (your explaination) around for nothing for weeks since the wind is coming from the North East.... Try to optimise a bit more I would say.

[Atco EBBR]

I don't know how it works in London, never worked there. But if they have RWY07L/R in use, don't you have to fly further out as well? Besides, Heathrow is one of the most congested airports in the world with frequent arrival slots, so it's not perfect there as well.

You haven't been looping over Brussels for no reason. If traffic allows (i.e. no too many eastbound departures, no high arrival load), arriving traffic from the east gets a nice shortcut over beauvechain airspace for a right hand circuit. Or even if your coming from the south (GTQ) from the border of the FIR direct to 10 nm final. And if there's a lot of departures and/or arrivals, then there's no alternative. Having a departure stream eastbound climbing to FL60 on course to HUL mixed with an arrival stream from FLO over Beauvechain descending from FL70 to 2000ft, doesn't appeal to me for some reason...

It's a bit of a cheap shot to say that we should 'try to optimise a bit more'. Given the fact that you can't change the general location of the arrival (north of Liège and FLO (halfway between Sint-Truiden and Diest)) and departure streams (from Huldenberg SE-bound) and there's military airspace over the south of the Ardennes, I don't see which from that optimization should take...

Add to that the role of politics. To come back to topic, a working method for the closure of RWY25R in august hasn't been decided yet.It really shouldn't be difficult: 02/07R is the obvious answer. A known configuration with the highest capacity. But for some reason the cabinet of Wathelet is allergic to the use of 02 for landings. So either it will be single (!) runway 20 or a configuration that has yet to be tried and tested (and with even less capacity than 02/07R...)

[jan_olieslagers]

for some reason the cabinet of Wathelet is allergic to the use of 02 for landings

Hah! I'll bet you...you can work out that reason for yourself!

[EBAW_flyer]

LAHSO operations on 25L (together with departures on 20). You still have a LDA of about 2000m before RWY 20.
Already in use in the US, but I guess it would take about 5-10 years to get it into operation in Belgium .

[Atco EBBR]

for some reason the cabinet of Wathelet is allergic to the use of 02 for landings

Hah! I'll bet you...you can work out that reason for yourself!

I have absolutely no clue...

But ok, if they don't like 02, give us an alternative (i.e. ILS 07L, would be even better)

LAHSO operations on 25L (together with departures on 20). You still have a LDA of about 2000m before RWY 20.
Already in use in the US, but I guess it would take about 5-10 years to get it into operation in Belgium .

Do you know how that works in practice? Is take-off 20 independent of landing 25L?

[EBAW_flyer]

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/lahso.html

Indeed, the aircraft gets a clearance to land on 25L but hold short of 20, with a simultaneous departure from 20.
It does need additional runway markings and lighting, and is on pilot's discretion (a pilot landing on 25L can always refuse LAHSO and so the aircraft on 20 needs to wait until the runway is cleared).
Most light and medium category aircraft vacate 25L via C4 or C5 (to vacate C5 means you are at taxi speed before 20, so it would be possible to stop before 20).
But first the BCAA and operators have to approve it, so I guess it takes a lot of time.

[Atco EBBR]

I don't know if that's even allowed in Belgium/Europe. I have the impression that in the USA much more is possible in ATC: cleared to land in sequence, LAHSO,...

I doubt if I'd be comfortable working 25L LAHSO with departures on 20. Probably takes some time getting used to. I wonder if most pilots would be ok with this?