Hi everyone !
Besides the dangerous common flight practices in use at Ryanair, another major point of which the LCC takes advantage is the payment of social security charges in Ireland which offers a very friendly fiscal system.
The EU legislation is about to be adapted to force airlines to pay the payroll charges of their crew depending on their home base, how is this going to affect Ryanair's results ? In comparison with FSCs, how much can Ryanair currently save and how is the legislation change going to impact the Irish airline ?
Should have it been only Belgium taking this decision, it would have probably been a major mistake as Ryanair would have relocated to neighboorhooding airports such as Maastricht, or Lille, however, with a common European decision, Ryanair does not have this option and I believe that taxes on labor are much higher everywhere in Western Europe than they are in Ireland.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?lan ... erNews=yes
Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
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Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
Another round of FR bashing??
You seem to forget that BruAir, for the last 10 years, has been exempted from paying part of the social security for their crew. On top of that hey were keeping the employees contribution instead of paying them to the state. A hidden subsidy, which lead to the supression of the special pension fund for crew.
These subsidies will continue for the next ten years in an attempt to save BruAir from bankruptcy.
You seem to forget that BruAir, for the last 10 years, has been exempted from paying part of the social security for their crew. On top of that hey were keeping the employees contribution instead of paying them to the state. A hidden subsidy, which lead to the supression of the special pension fund for crew.
These subsidies will continue for the next ten years in an attempt to save BruAir from bankruptcy.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
As CRL is one of the best performing bases in the FR network I would not expect a change. Some smaller bases in countries were social security charges are high might be closed and moved to more lucrative countries.
As for "dangerous common flight practices", excuse me while I stop laughing and then allow me to say: don't talk about things you know nothing about. Hilarious
As for "dangerous common flight practices", excuse me while I stop laughing and then allow me to say: don't talk about things you know nothing about. Hilarious
Last edited by sean1982 on 13 Jan 2013, 19:16, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
RYR works with a lot of self employed people, not a lot will change for them....
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
Is Ryan Air's cabin crew also self-employed?
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
Sorry for bashing FR once again, this was not the purpose . As for the comparison with SN, it does not seem very relevant for me since the question was to understand the impact of a new regulation which will not change SN's situation compared to now.
As for the dangerous practices, I might not be part of the flying crew however looking at the recent documentary which was released and advertised on luchtzak is enough to make an informed judgment about an airline's operating system. I never said Ryanair is the only one to operate that way, nevertheless it is in the frontline of media.
@ Dre : are there other airlines working this way with their flying crew or is it specific to LCCs ?
As for the dangerous practices, I might not be part of the flying crew however looking at the recent documentary which was released and advertised on luchtzak is enough to make an informed judgment about an airline's operating system. I never said Ryanair is the only one to operate that way, nevertheless it is in the frontline of media.
@ Dre : are there other airlines working this way with their flying crew or is it specific to LCCs ?
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
And do they have many other customers other than ryanair for their 1 (wo)man company?
We at work have an extremely hard time convincing the Belgian taxman the consulting managers working at our HQ are 'real' self-employed and even PwC's consultancy could not save them all!
There's currently a real witchhunt going on in Belgium to eradicate all taxevasion through fake self-employment, so the boys and girls at CRL currently on Irish contracts may be in for an unpleasant surprise once their legal oversight is transferred to Belgium, as the Belgian taxman is of a completely different (less kind) type than his Irish counterpart, I can assure you!
We at work have an extremely hard time convincing the Belgian taxman the consulting managers working at our HQ are 'real' self-employed and even PwC's consultancy could not save them all!
There's currently a real witchhunt going on in Belgium to eradicate all taxevasion through fake self-employment, so the boys and girls at CRL currently on Irish contracts may be in for an unpleasant surprise once their legal oversight is transferred to Belgium, as the Belgian taxman is of a completely different (less kind) type than his Irish counterpart, I can assure you!
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ticketbuyer
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Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
The Italian government recently passed a law that forces Ryanair to pay Italian payroll taxes.
Ryanair accepted this quietly and Michael said that he planned to expand services to southern Italian destinations.
So now Ryanair are competing on a level playing field against Alitalia and it seems that they have nothing to fear.
Ryanair accepted this quietly and Michael said that he planned to expand services to southern Italian destinations.
So now Ryanair are competing on a level playing field against Alitalia and it seems that they have nothing to fear.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
JAF, BruAir and TCB all use the same system.Unilitha2 wrote: are there other airlines working this way with their flying crew or is it specific to LCCs ?
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
None of them are single (wo)man copanies and they all have other activities as well.Inquirer wrote:And do they have many other customers other than ryanair for their 1 (wo)man company?
We at work have an extremely hard time convincing the Belgian taxman the consulting managers working at our HQ are 'real' self-employed and even PwC's consultancy could not save them all!
There's currently a real witchhunt going on in Belgium to eradicate all taxevasion through fake self-employment, so the boys and girls at CRL currently on Irish contracts may be in for an unpleasant surprise once their legal oversight is transferred to Belgium, as the Belgian taxman is of a completely different (less kind) type than his Irish counterpart, I can assure you!
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
Actually this rules won't change anything in the ryanair operation...
When I was working for them, I was based in Bergamo, after one year I change of base and I went to Marseille, but I was officially based at CRL, for the French authories we were in night stop there, but the true thing is that they still have a summer base there with 4 aircraft. and the crew are living there like in the past when it was a proper base...
so my through is that they will make the same thing everywere, they will officially based everybody in Ireland and will say that people are "nightstoping" in their base, and so they can still their taxes in Ireland.
When I was working for them, I was based in Bergamo, after one year I change of base and I went to Marseille, but I was officially based at CRL, for the French authories we were in night stop there, but the true thing is that they still have a summer base there with 4 aircraft. and the crew are living there like in the past when it was a proper base...
so my through is that they will make the same thing everywere, they will officially based everybody in Ireland and will say that people are "nightstoping" in their base, and so they can still their taxes in Ireland.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
And for the security, I say it again, everything is done to make the flight as safe as possible. I didn't realise it when I was there, Ryanair care about safety more than money, and they are a bit paranoiac and do too much for the security sometimes. however I left Ryanair for one of our Belgian Airline I have to say that the safety is really bad there, I mostly speak about the procedure, and the training.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
but then again you are CCM... i doubt you have much insight in cockpit and regular ops.crew1990 wrote:And for the security, I say it again, everything is done to make the flight as safe as possible. I didn't realise it when I was there, Ryanair care about safety more than money, and they are a bit paranoiac and do too much for the security sometimes. however I left Ryanair for one of our Belgian Airline I have to say that the safety is really bad there, I mostly speak about the procedure, and the training.
I also wonder which belgian airline has bad CCM's, i know SN quite well and my gf is a SCCM at JAF so there's TAY, BCY or TCW left?
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
No this is true, I don't know what is happening in the flight deck but what I know is that everytime we had something broken on board It was fixed we just had to writte it down on the logbook and it was fixed for the next days, as Ryanair have a lot of spare aircraft, even in summer if there any minor prob lem with an aircraft they swap it with another. The code of the flight dexk door change every 2 weeks there are also a lot of procedure like, for example, if a pilot go to the toilet, a cabin crew must go in the cokpit, it look stupid, but If Egyptair had this rule on the JFK-CAI they wouldn't have any crash. Also the training, it's funny that's make one year that I stopped flying with Ryanair ans I still know my SEP, because the training was really hard and you have to study and know everything even the little detail. I'm not a pro-ryanair, but I just defend them about the safety because they are really good at it.
And I don't see the point to say for which airline I left Ryanair, I was just doing a comparasion because people are every time bashing Ryanair but they should have a look to what is going on in Belgium because our airlines as well can have some lake of safety.
And I don't see the point to say for which airline I left Ryanair, I was just doing a comparasion because people are every time bashing Ryanair but they should have a look to what is going on in Belgium because our airlines as well can have some lake of safety.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
I must second that. Ryanair is known for being very disciplined when it comes to safety.
If you try to cut corners with regards to maintenance, the next day a Ryanair corporate engineer will fly in from Dublin to teach you and your comrades a lesson or two about safety. More dangerous is a well-known ops manager at CRL who likes to push mechanics to work faster... obviously the mechanics give him the finger and Ryanair doesn't care as long as the delay is justified and the job well done.
Their cockpit and training procedures are very streamlined. Their balance sheet is well-made, very fast to fill, very easy to modify, yet gives an instant overview of the loads and CG.
Much better than the former VEX or SN B737 loadsheets.
FR put a lot of thought into processes, so that the extra time is already spent at the source and not wasted every day on the tarmac.
Pilots at Ryanair work more and sometimes get tired. However, a pilot's monthly flying hours is capped at 90-100 depending on the country, so even at 100 hours, it's close to equivalent to a full-time at another job. Of course, the hours are not regular, but that comes with the job. Plus in cruise at FL350, there's not much to do... So it's relative.
With regards to social security and taxation, if you're self-employed and you live more than 6 months a year in country X, you must pay your social security and often also personal tax in country X. If you're self-employed, the rate for SC tax is around 23%. Self-employment also implies that you have more than one customer in at least one of the activities that you carry out.
However, there are also benefits. You can deduct expenses incurred in Belgium from your revenues, including car expenses for driving to the airport, work-related material like sunglasses, watches (it has to be reasonable and justified, don't put your ELT-equipped Breitling on there without consulting your bookkeeper or your tax office), internet and phone expenses for work use.
Most pilots consider flying as a part-time job and give flight lessons, courses or have expensive hobbies that they can deduct from their revenues.
One issue is scheduling. As self-employed, you must be able to dictate your own availabilities and not be bound by a fixed roster or have hours forced on you that you don't want to fly. This is a grey area but when they don't like something else, the social inspection can use this to make you miserable.
If you try to cut corners with regards to maintenance, the next day a Ryanair corporate engineer will fly in from Dublin to teach you and your comrades a lesson or two about safety. More dangerous is a well-known ops manager at CRL who likes to push mechanics to work faster... obviously the mechanics give him the finger and Ryanair doesn't care as long as the delay is justified and the job well done.
Their cockpit and training procedures are very streamlined. Their balance sheet is well-made, very fast to fill, very easy to modify, yet gives an instant overview of the loads and CG.
Much better than the former VEX or SN B737 loadsheets.
FR put a lot of thought into processes, so that the extra time is already spent at the source and not wasted every day on the tarmac.
Pilots at Ryanair work more and sometimes get tired. However, a pilot's monthly flying hours is capped at 90-100 depending on the country, so even at 100 hours, it's close to equivalent to a full-time at another job. Of course, the hours are not regular, but that comes with the job. Plus in cruise at FL350, there's not much to do... So it's relative.
With regards to social security and taxation, if you're self-employed and you live more than 6 months a year in country X, you must pay your social security and often also personal tax in country X. If you're self-employed, the rate for SC tax is around 23%. Self-employment also implies that you have more than one customer in at least one of the activities that you carry out.
However, there are also benefits. You can deduct expenses incurred in Belgium from your revenues, including car expenses for driving to the airport, work-related material like sunglasses, watches (it has to be reasonable and justified, don't put your ELT-equipped Breitling on there without consulting your bookkeeper or your tax office), internet and phone expenses for work use.
Most pilots consider flying as a part-time job and give flight lessons, courses or have expensive hobbies that they can deduct from their revenues.
One issue is scheduling. As self-employed, you must be able to dictate your own availabilities and not be bound by a fixed roster or have hours forced on you that you don't want to fly. This is a grey area but when they don't like something else, the social inspection can use this to make you miserable.
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JAF737
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
Flanker 2,
I would be extremely happy to see you flying 90-100 hours each month.
It's not a 9 to 16 job. Flying in cruise is no hard work (for most of the flights), but it is tiring. It's not a natural environment. It's noisy, pressurized, and you are 2000m high 100 hours a month. Don't compare what you absolutely don't know. Don't even try to argue on that until you have made it.
Furthermore, you are not flying for Ryanair as a pilot either. You don't know what's going on internally. They certainly have good points and they are strict on safety, yes, but their culture also has very bad points which can lead to dramatic results. Again, you don't know what the job is all about, so why do you even talk about it?
Frankly guys...
I would be extremely happy to see you flying 90-100 hours each month.
It's not a 9 to 16 job. Flying in cruise is no hard work (for most of the flights), but it is tiring. It's not a natural environment. It's noisy, pressurized, and you are 2000m high 100 hours a month. Don't compare what you absolutely don't know. Don't even try to argue on that until you have made it.
Furthermore, you are not flying for Ryanair as a pilot either. You don't know what's going on internally. They certainly have good points and they are strict on safety, yes, but their culture also has very bad points which can lead to dramatic results. Again, you don't know what the job is all about, so why do you even talk about it?
Frankly guys...
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
FR pilots are limited to 900hrs/year so 90-100 each month is simply impossible!
It is quite the opposite at the moment, as pilots are only paid when they fly, FR is a bit overcrewed so not many pilots are over 750hrs/year for the moment.
It is quite the opposite at the moment, as pilots are only paid when they fly, FR is a bit overcrewed so not many pilots are over 750hrs/year for the moment.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
But why are you saying that, pilot are doing crazy hours! They never have shift longer than 10 hours to be sure that they don't have to pay the hotel in case of nightstop dute to technical problem. This true they fly 90 hours a month but all the company does, and the law allow the crew to fligh 100h a month, so where is the problem. A friend of mine work for JAF and he flown 110 hoursin July (wich is legal because I think it's 100h for 28 days or something).
Now yes there is something very bad at ryanair wich is not very nice. sometimes they have some shift with 6 sector like STN-DUB-STN-DUB-STN-DUB-STN and this is really tiering, however those kind of thing happend only once in a month.
Now yes there is something very bad at ryanair wich is not very nice. sometimes they have some shift with 6 sector like STN-DUB-STN-DUB-STN-DUB-STN and this is really tiering, however those kind of thing happend only once in a month.
Re: Ryanair's future following EU's legislative change ?
Hmmm ... JAF737 ... Let's not start discussing company culture :-/