BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

[BrusselsAirlines]

It was written in the stars, turboprops are on a revival with soaring fuel prices.

Brussels Airlines is planning to fly more turboprops as from next year - the Austrian Dash wetlease proves to be a succesfull test for the less dense dayflights and SN's ultrashorthaul

More news to come probably! Will it be own operation this time or just more wet lease??

Exciting news!

[HighInTheSky]

It was written in the stars, turboprops are on a revival with soaring fuel prices.

Brussels Airlines is planning to fly more turboprops as from next year - the Austrian Dash wetlease proves to be a succesfull test for the less dense dayflights and BA's ultrashorthaul

More news to come probably! Will it be own operation this time or just more wet lease??

Exciting news!

The code for Brussels Airlines is SN and not BA.

Although I understand the conclusion of the board, they say they will save 6-8 million Euro by reducing the types of A/C in the EU fleet, yet they will add a 4th type??

Hmm...

[BrusselsAirlines]

Rectified! thx Would be more logic to call it Sabena following the same logic the other way around - other topic!!!

A good point you have there - harmonisation of the fleet...wetlease is only about numbers in the books off course...early conclusion??

But can one ignore the TP's these days?? Certainly on the 1hr till 1hr20 flight times?

I once read a magazine from VLM where they asked their pax after landing what type of acft they had been flying and what make. I do not remember the exact results but the point was that over 3/4th of the pax had had no clue whether it was a Jet or Prop, nor the exact type.

I found this info amazing, though logic. I guess people care more about price, service, flexibility and on time performance!

[fretn]

Oh hi NCB

[HighInTheSky]

Oh hi NCB

Exactly my first thought

[cnc]

i think NCB knew the iata code for brussels airlines is SN, while BA is british airways

Although I understand the conclusion of the board, they say they will save 6-8 million Euro by reducing the types of A/C in the EU fleet, yet they will add a 4th type??

its a wet lease so no it doesn't count as a newly added type to the fleet since the lessor takes care of aircraft related things

[appel]

Although I understand the conclusion of the board, they say they will save 6-8 million Euro by reducing the types of A/C in the EU fleet, yet they will add a 4th type??

its a wet lease so no it doesn't count as a newly added type to the fleet since the lessor takes care of aircraft related things

and if they would be buying/leasing their own turboprops it would only be a 4th type on short term if they are going to get rid of the b737 and the avro

[HighInTheSky]

i think NCB knew the iata code for brussels airlines is SN, while BA is british airways

I didn't want to say that member BrusselsAirlines is NCB, just that this development must make his day, while he's reading this on Luchtzak

its a wet lease so no it doesn't count as a newly added type to the fleet since the lessor takes care of aircraft related things

Where did you find the info that it will be a wetlease? From wich operator? What a/c?

Now the question is which routes will go to TP a/c... SXB seems likely...

and if they would be buying/leasing their own turboprops it would only be a 4th type on short term if they are going to get rid of the b737 and the avro

BTW: Don't expect the Avrojets or the B737 fleet to be gone by next year

[regi]

Oh hi NCB

I didn't dare to react because I am on a watch list.

[cathay belgium]

I didn't dare to react because I am on a watch list.

I LIKE button

Flown the dash a first time this year, aircrafts aren't as bad as stated here before.. on short hauls.

Now maybe this idea will fill NCB with joy,but what would he think about adding a 6th A330 to the fleet,
exit 737/AVRO and no replacement with some A319LR's ..

Guess getting a dash into the fleet on some short low-density routes isn't so bad at all, but why not add
some EMB 190's instead ,as other companies try to get rid of the props in favour of the EMB-series.. ( like KLM ).

Don't think we must compare SN with Air Baltic or so.. last figures shows us that NCB wasn't that right at all,
to lower seats in favour of more seats.. results shows this clearly no ( and after all we must admit this idea was stated by tolipanebas ) so for now NCB-others 0-1 until I see the first owned dash at BRU

One thing must be said, with NCB there was more chitchat at luchtzak no ?
And indeed NCB wouldn't make a mistake as BA/SN, but I guess he's still praying for a new start-up airliner at Liege ...

CX-B

[Bralo20]

but I guess he's still praying for a new start-up airliner at Liege ...

CX-B

Air Falliet?

[DannyVDB]

Question is, would eventual turboprops be to add new destinations (thin routes) or replace some AVRO on existing routes, or a combination of both?

I could see e.g. Luxembourg, Nantes or Bordeaux added ...

Danny

[diminbru]

Question is, would eventual turboprops be to add new destinations (thin routes) or replace some AVRO on existing routes, or a combination of both?

I could see e.g. Luxembourg, Nantes or Bordeaux added ...

Danny

I wouldn't see this happen for the winter season. Turboprops will mainly serve to replace AVRO's

[tolipanebas]

Oh hi NCB

Hahaha, now that's a good one.

It's true about the plans to add some turboprops and it shouldn't come as a surprise even, although after an initial jump of joy, NCB is probably banging his head against the wall once more right now, seeing how SN is heading even further in exactly the opposite direction than he lectured us on.

Indeed, not only did SN successfully decide to use a bunch of larger (Airbus) planes with a much lower CASM, rather than smaller planes, all in an effort to increase the loadfactor on routes where demand could be stimulated and market share taken away from others, including from LCC like U2 which BTW, is taking a serious beating on GVA, a concept NCB thought was completely insane! After all: "if they can't even fill an 80- seating RJ to 60%, then how on earth do you expect them to fill a 140 seating plane", right?

And now SN are looking into a small fleet of wetleased turboprops indeed, not to operate a network of medium haul routes with very high frequencies as NCB lectured us on, but rather to allow the airline to link in short haul destinations where demand can not be stimulated by using larger planes and where even an RJ85 is too big, just as I have always said.

Yep, we're definitely a long way from the ideas of NCB, and guess what? The current strategy is actually working...
Who would have guessed that, right? I have been explaining exactly this strategy to both expand where possible and go thinner where needed for the last what was it? 4 years now, after it had been tested at airlines like LH, LX or OS, but then NCB thought of those exemples as badly run airlines....

Now, let's get more of those long haul planes in guys, not just 1 but at least 3...
Just 1 transtatlantic flight a day is a bit ridiculous really.

[Air Key West]

Indeed, one transatlantic flight is inadequate in my opinion, too (if you have not, perhaps read my post in the thread "Brussels Airlines new US destinations poll").

As regards, the turboprops, although I don't like them at all, they can be a necessary evil for short or fairly short thin routes.
A few years ago, I flew several times to Strasbourg and on each flight there were approximately 30 pax on board the RJ85 (a 35 % load factor !!!).
At that time, I wrote to b.air customer relations to suggest they try out a wet-leased 50-seater turboprop.
The answer was : wet-leases are too expensive ! Now they are apparently going for such an option (was I such a bad armchair manager to suggest something which is now going to be put into practice ?).
Or is it just again the usual "over-careful" attitude of b.air ? Let's try several wet-leases and if they prove successful, we'll buy/lease our own turboprops ?
I think that in the end, b.air will end up with around ten turboprops to offer three to four daily frequencies to routes like SXB, LYS, TLS and HAJ, with perhaps new feeder additions like AMS, DUS, LUX and new routes like BOD and NTE.

It's just a pity that at b.air it always takes ages to make decisions which seem obvious from the beginning and which market studies would/wil confirm.

[tolipanebas]

Indeed, one transatlantic flight is inadequate in my opinion, too.

Yet according to our co-CEO, we must "create the financial environment for this project ourselves", meaning: "it will have to be funded by cashflow, without investment from the shareholders'.

As regards, the turboprops, although I don't like them at all, they can be a necessary evil for short or fairly short thin routes.

Indeed, there's nothing wrong with a turboprob on a traditionally thin flight to SXB or an off-peak to for instance MAN , but it would however by commercial suicide to operate it on any GVA, MXP or TXL, as NCB has suggested!

A few years ago, I flew several times to Strasbourg and on each flight there were approximately 30 pax on board the RJ85 (a 35 % load factor !!!).

SXB is completely full (with extra charters added even) for about 1 week a month during the Parliamentary sessions there and almost empty the rest of the month: it has always been like that really. As such, SXB would likely be the prime candidate to see turboprop operations during off-peak periods as there is no market stimulation from using a bigger plane possible and even the smallest AVRO is too big most of the time.

At that time, I wrote to b.air customer relations to suggest they try out a wet-leased 50-seater turboprop.The answer was : wet-leases are too expensive! Now they are apparently going for such an option?

Mind you however, SN is now part of a larger group and as you have noticed, their wetleases are from group members only (i.e. bmi regional and Austrian Arrows), so that may influence the price setting.

In this context, SN should make use of any reciprocal possibilities and propose some of its RJ's to other group members: both LH and LX are known to be lacking 100-seaters, operating wetleased Fokker 100s from Helvetic as well as Contact Air. SN might take over some of those flights, thus keeping the money in the group. Just my idea.

I think that in the end, b.air will end up with around ten turboprops to offer three to four daily frequencies to routes like SXB, LYS, TLS and HAJ, with perhaps new feeder additions like AMS, DUS, LUX and new routes like BOD and NTE.

I think it will be less than that as both the frequencies as well as some of the routes you mention are off reach. They could however use it to transfer the STR flight from LH too, the way they did with the HAJ route.

It's just a pity that at b.air it always takes ages to make decisions which seem obvious from the beginning and which market studies would/wil confirm.

That my friend, is a given.
When you have to pay everything from cashflow, you need to grow organically, and sadly that takes time.
Let's hope we get rid of our inert old shareholders asap, so LH can inject some money as our management has been far far too passive in looking for INVESTORS!

[FLYAIR10]

Or is it just again the usual "over-careful" attitude of b.air ? Let's try several wet-leases and if they prove successful, we'll buy/lease our own turboprops ?
I think that in the end, b.air will end up with around ten turboprops to offer three to four daily frequencies to routes like SXB, LYS, TLS and HAJ, with perhaps new feeder additions like AMS, DUS, LUX and new routes like BOD and NTE.

I flew F50 (ANR-LCY) and DHC8-400(BRU-SOU) and to be honest ,from a passenger point of view,for such kind of sectors it doesn't make too much difference with a pure jet.(except for the small overhead bins in the F50)
Why isn't it considered to set up a new regional airline in Belgium? SN could participate in it or even own it completely. Quite some routes,or off peak flights, flown by the RJ's could be transferred to the "babySN".
and extra destinations + additional frequencies could be (re-)started.
If SN can set up an airline operation in Congo they could do the same in Belgium aswell I guess..(if they find the additional capital)
Grtz.

[BrusselsAirlines]

I am not convinced this will be wetlease for B.A.

What with 3 737 and more RJ85 on the ground - enough crews available...

[cathay belgium]

I am not convinced this will be wetlease for B.A.

You mean SN , no

Hard learner ( just kidding ! )

What with 3 737 and more RJ85 on the ground - enough crews available...

The thing is there won't be any aircraft on the ground..., they go back to the lesser, and the
crews are necessary for the 6th A330, so I guess just a few pilots grounded ( or pensioned ?) and
some pilots a new certification no ?

Like to see the dash flying AMS in competition to KLM and Bordeaux is really wanted also I guess..

Why isn't it considered to set up a new regional airline in Belgium? SN could participate in it or even own it completely. Quite some routes,or off peak flights, flown by the RJ's could be transferred to the "babySN".

At this point you must see that the AVRO's are leased and expensive to operate nowadays, so this won't give help SN to some extra money, I think babyBMI - BMI owned the B737's themselves, so as SN with their lonely 737 and BAE146 for Korongo, less costs and still aking some /little money..
It hard to achieve this when you must pay monthly your leases..
In fact they can do this with cheap aircraft in the future,but I guess they better keep their own brand
in mind first no,SN isn't that big for the moment


CX-B

[Flanker]

While I sort out some username issues with the moderators, I, Flogger or NCB or whatever you want to call me, am happy to see the Brussels Airlines management making great steps towards a sustainable airline.

The Q400 wet-lease, as has been shared now previously, was a test to see how the turboprop performs on a point to point route like BRU-Hannover. The common sense answer is that the aircraft that will replace the Avro's and 737's will be operated by SN, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Wet-leases are expensive temporary leases.

No matter how you like to bend it, Cathay and Tolipanebas, this isn't a matter of who wins what.
The choice was evident and not so evident at the same time and if there's anyone who will win from this, it's going to be the employees. I think that it's a very gutsy move of the CEO's and I think that it's great for the staff to have motivated leaders.

The turboprops can perform missions beyond 2 hours as well and SN will certainly use that option.
There are some long thin routes that just don't make sense to operate with A32S, and are too expensive to operate with RJ's, but where having a direct connection with BRU is a greater convenience than the small inconveniences of sitting in a turboprop for longer hours.

The TP's can also challenge Ryanair into markets where FR has a quasi-monopoly out of CRL and strengthen SN's position where SN is now competing them with RJ's.
For instance, DUB. It doesn't make sense for SN to fly to DUB right now because FR and Aer Lingus are already serving the route and the Avro can't compete against B738's and A320's.
But with a TP, SN can challenge this market without a big risk and make life hard on Ryanair.
Ryanair is a strong competitor with a big weakness: for every seat that is empty, other passengers have to pay more. It's a vicious circle and if FR loses 15-20% on LF and yields on each flight, they have to drop the route.
That's how FR stole pax from SN, now it's going to get back to haunt them.

As the TP's replace the Avro's and some B737's, SN's bottom line will go way down and should free quite some capital for a long-haul expansion, thing that is more important than getting a nice line-up of Embraer's at BRU.
This will allow SN to immediately trim its capacity and costs on routes with overcapacity, then to increase frequencies on routes that are frequency-sensitive, and later on to develop new routes (which will probably only come in a second phase due to the higher risk and priority of Avro phase-out).
The result will be huge savings in fuel, maintenance (and landing fees), more revenue from more frequencies and destinations.

Rather than wet-lease or no wet-lease, the question is if it's going to be new frames or old ones and how many. There's a lot of potential for new routes in France, Germany and the UK.
The TP is also a tool to operate high frequency operations. Berlin seems quite plausible and they could add frequencies to shut out Easyjet completely. I can see the TP's being used to LHR as well to develop the market until it becomes sustainable to operate with A320 capacity on all the daily frequencies.

The reason I refer to them as TP's, is because SN hasn't announced its type choice yet.
Negotiations may be ongoing with airframers and lessors.

There should be a public announcement soon, including the additional long haul aircraft.