Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[lumumba]

You can compare apples to apples - CDG and AMS to FRA+MUC+ZRH.

The markets BRU serves are not core for LH. So BRU would get some additional connectivity to fill capacity, not more, not less.

You're overestimating your brand and it's role, hence the frustration vs your dreams.

See the facts - although you won't like them :
- the Premium brands are Swiss and LH - with First offerings and New/ although delayed Premium cabin Produkt
- second would come ITA - simply by long haul fleet size and importance of the market
- leisure travel / Discover+ Edelweiss in the large markets is more important than small brands, due to synergies and competition
- OS and SN complete the picture as complementary offering - not less, not more ; they would get their fair growth share, but this follows the rest

In a nutshell : the A350 for Edelweiss were more important for the group, and scaling up Discover as well.

SN has a clear path - A 319-》 A320 to compete in a LCC Environment and some additional written off A330 for minor interest markets. That's what you get.

- no 80 seaters, as the whole group got rid of them
- no models which can't play a role for more group brands
- no dwarf diversification
- no local approach that could harm group efficiency

Again here, the role split is clear :
- intra European Hub is MUC
- feeding of the major 3 hubs / with FCO 4 comes after

I think your analysis is right, I also think that Brussels is a niche market with a very interesting and well-loved hub for pax.
I also think that the African market is a little nugget of gold that was built with more than a hundred years of experience, which is very special in the airline industry.

[oldblueeyes]

BRU can be expanded as Hub for African niche routes - this happens with integration of the offers into the joint ventures.

But BRU won't become a European Hub- simply because MUC is more central, built by purpose for that and LH owns 50% of the terminal it operates thus earning a share of profits of the ground activities.

[lumumba]

BRU can be expanded as Hub for African niche routes - this happens with integration of the offers into the joint ventures.

But BRU won't become a European Hub- simply because MUC is more central, built by purpose for that and LH owns 50% of the terminal it operates thus earning a share of profits of the ground activities.

graphically Brussels also has the advantage over Munich for flights to the United States for example if you leave from Nantes you do not go to Munich to go to the United States but I'm agree with you Brussels won't become a world hub it will be a reasonable little hub based on a niche market.

[oldblueeyes]

On the other hand the big Hubs have euch 2 flights daily operated by LH and United so total time may be less than a connection to BRU which has to earn it's money from P2P Pax.

Last but not least the yield is important as well.

As usual, answers are not simple.

Sn needs to earn more per Pax on it's core routes, thus cost reduction via upgauging makes sense, as Belgium is a low yield market.

High cost regional routes are not a big Deal, otherwise VLM and other small size aircraft companies would still exist.

[lumumba]

On the other hand the big Hubs have euch 2 flights daily operated by LH and United so total time may be less than a connection to BRU which has to earn it's money from P2P Pax.

Last but not least the yield is important as well.

As usual, answers are not simple.

Sn needs to earn more per Pax on it's core routes, thus cost reduction via upgauging makes sense, as Belgium is a low yield market.

High cost regional routes are not a big Deal, otherwise VLM and other small size aircraft companies would still exist.

I'm not sure there is a big difference in yield on long haul between Belgium and the other countries at least to the US also it's a JV doesn't make much difference you can go via BRU and come back via ZRH.

The connection doesn't need to be longer but for sure you have less possibilities but with a daily flight it's already very convenient this is more a problem when you fly 2 or 3 times a week but again it's also a JV.

I am quite positive for the future of Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport with there niche market.

I think the yield problem in Brussels is more on European routes because the competition with low cost airlines.

[oldblueeyes]

Exactly.
You need competitive cost intra Europe.
And you can it only via large aircraft.
Wizz and Easy develop a 320/321 Mix, Ryanair is moving towards the 198 seater and here people are dreaming about 80 seaters subfleets.

[Conti764]

BRU shouldn't go after the likes of AMS, CDG, FRA,...

I flew twice from AMS and it was horendous. Overcrowded, long walks, passing security took forever...

BRU should focus on an top notch customer experience and thus also be selective at what airlines fly from the airport at busy hours.

[lumumba]

BRU shouldn't go after the likes of AMS, CDG, FRA,...

I flew twice from AMS and it was horendous. Overcrowded, long walks, passing security took forever...

BRU should focus on an top notch customer experience and thus also be selective at what airlines fly from the airport at busy hours.

It’s true that all American colleagues who pass through Brussels love passing through here.

[lumumba]

Exactly.
You need competitive cost intra Europe.
And you can it only via large aircraft.
Wizz and Easy develop a 320/321 Mix, Ryanair is moving towards the 198 seater and here people are dreaming about 80 seaters subfleets.

Turboprops could be a solution for Birmingham,Nantes, Bordeaux etc...

[nordikcam]

BRU shouldn't go after the likes of AMS, CDG, FRA,...

I flew twice from AMS and it was horendous. Overcrowded, long walks, passing security took forever...

BRU should focus on an top notch customer experience and thus also be selective at what airlines fly from the airport at busy hours.

From my point of view AMS is horrible when you do a Rail + Plane transfer or vv. On the other hand, the connection between two KLM flights is easy. But the connection to BRU is condemned to death. I agree : BRU is very easy !

[oldblueeyes]

Exactly.
You need competitive cost intra Europe.
And you can it only via large aircraft.
Wizz and Easy develop a 320/321 Mix, Ryanair is moving towards the 198 seater and here people are dreaming about 80 seaters subfleets.

Turboprops could be a solution for Birmingham,Nantes, Bordeaux etc...

If so, than only as wet lease - the condition would be that they earn money from day 1 on P2P.

FlyBe was not succesfull lately with such a strategy.

Intra Europe there is no need to weaken connectivity via the major hubs, towards Africa i doubt that there would be enough Pax per day to fill 2 flights into and out of the long haul waves.

And the last tutboprops of OS were exchanged with 6 A320. For them it seems to pay off.

[lumumba]

Exactly.
You need competitive cost intra Europe.
And you can it only via large aircraft.
Wizz and Easy develop a 320/321 Mix, Ryanair is moving towards the 198 seater and here people are dreaming about 80 seaters subfleets.

Turboprops could be a solution for Birmingham,Nantes, Bordeaux etc...

If so, than only as wet lease - the condition would be that they earn money from day 1 on P2P.

FlyBe was not succesfull lately with such a strategy.

Intra Europe there is no need to weaken connectivity via the major hubs, towards Africa i doubt that there would be enough Pax per day to fill 2 flights into and out of the long haul waves.

And the last tutboprops of OS were exchanged with 6 A320. For them it seems to pay off.

I understand it's an idea I'm not a specialist but in 2000 I took often the flight of Sabena between Nantes and Brussels for my job and the pax was good I don't now about the yield obviously.

[fcw]

I'm not a specialist but in 2000 I took often the flight of Sabena between Nantes and Brussels for my job and the pax was good I don't now about the yield obviously.

There you have it: Sabena had aircraft of all sizes, a huge network, very good loads, but went bankrupt! (Don’t get me started about the 100+ executive vice-presidents Sabena had and management paying themselves a second salary in tax free countries...)

[oldblueeyes]

These are two good examples.

Nantes is connected to FRA, ZRH and as from Mai 2024 again to MUC. So Hub Pax are already served.
But - we speak about 6-7 Mio Pax/year, the majority being served by 3 LCC Transavia, EasyJet and Volotea. Well, none of them is flying into VRU, only Ryanair to CRL.

The picture looks pretty mich the same in Bordeaux.

So, if transfer Pax are already served by 2 or 3 Hubs with together around 150 aircraft , would it make sense to compete on price with Ryanair for the P2P public? If SN would be strong and large, i would say yes, but in it's current financials there are likely other routes where money is easier to be earned.

[Matt]

Atlantis,
Let us be serious , there are no real experts on this forum.
Just Aviation enthousiast.

Some would-be experts use arrogant style to appear more clever. Quod non.

So... (Ex)Pilots, avionics engineers, aircraft designers (yes, parts are being designed for Airbus in BE) and maintenance engineers are self proclaimed specialists in their domain.

How planes are not falling down due to these mere enthousiasts must be a miracle! Aviation is easy!

And I know he is a troll but come on. He's calling actual professionals "would be experts"

[crew1990]

We are all aviation enthousiast on this forum, some of us are "speacialist".

Speacialist, yes but in our specific area of expertise. Beeing a pilot, a flight attendant, an engineer, an office staff or whatever does not mean we are specialist in every aspect of aviation this is why even internally we regularly have inter deparment workshop better undestand as a whole. We are all still learning thing when we are open for dialogue so let's be humble for god sake.

[oldblueeyes]

Dialogue starts when different opinions are driven by arguments - regardless if technical, economical, compiling different sources etc.

And it ends when a personalized blame game starts, driven by personal anthipaty, frustration etc.

There is nothing wrong in having a personal dream or vision, but than there is a need to fight on winning the argument.

[lumumba]

Dialogue starts when different opinions are driven by arguments - regardless if technical, economical, compiling different sources etc.

And it ends when a personalized blame game starts, driven by personal anthipaty, frustration etc.

There is nothing wrong in having a personal dream or vision, but than there is a need to fight on winning the argument.

[Vic Diesel]

And the last tutboprops of OS were exchanged with 6 A320. For them it seems to pay off.

Sorry to correct a factual error: the 6 A320 were not meant as a replacement for the Dash-8, but for the phasing out of the A319 sub-fleet. The Dash-8 routes are mainly flown by the E195 - which is also much better suitable for shorter feeder routes from smaller Eastern European airports than the A320.

And it seems that the dumping of the Dash-8 "paid off" so much that OS is wetleasing two ATR72 from Braathens for the season...

[Lux_avi]

And it seems that the dumping of the Dash-8 "paid off" so much that OS is wetleasing two ATR72 from Braathens for the season...

Which means nothing.
SN using the CRJ from a wet-lease airline this summer doesn't mean they regret their small(er) jumbolino's...