U.S. Airforce Tanker

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

User avatar
bits44
Posts: 1889
Joined: 03 Aug 2004, 00:00
Location: Vancouver CYVR

U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by bits44 »

It appears we may have lost this topic, at least temporarily !

As you all may or may not know the U.S. Air Force has reissued its RFP for the tanker.

Controversy has already reared its ugly head, accusations are being made that the Air Force has again tilted the playing field in Airbus' favour merely rewriting the specs to cover their mistakes in the original proposal.

I would look to the new Administration to be elected in November to finally finish this deal.

If it's McCain it will go to Airbus,
Obama to Boeing

All the reasons are prolific and available in multiple sources.

Let the Games begin! :o
There are no strangers in the world, just friends we have yet to meet.

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

I certainly agree that this will be a contentious procurement. The stakes are very high for both competitors. It is very difficult to conduct an impartial procurement since both candidate planes (A330 and the B767) are very different planes. They differ in size, range, cargo capability, fuel offload, passenger capacity, etc. and a valid comparison will not be possible. To maximize competition (and appease both planes political backers) the USAF has opened the competition to the widest extent possible – this puts one candidate plane at a disadvantage.

The USAF selected the A-330 as the chosen tanker based on greater capabilities. Many of these capabilities will never be used. For example, the general need for a tanker is to off load less than 100,000 pounds of fuel (4-8 fighters, 1-2 bombers); both aircraft can do this. Over 80% of military cargo is delivered by commercial freighter due to laws (military must not compete with private sector) and tankers are held in reserve for tanker missions).

I am afraid if the USAF procures a plane too much larger than the KC-135 it is intended to replace, the US taxpayer will be buying (and paying for) more capability than required. Whatever plane is selected, it must fit existing hangers and bases (no sense paying for another set of infrastructure) and must not use more fuel than necessary. The US taxpayer deserves no less.

User avatar
ElcoB
Posts: 677
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 00:00
Location: West-Flanders(Belgium)

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by ElcoB »

smokejumper wrote:I certainly agree that this will be a contentious procurement. ...
Agreed...
All depends of what the air force really wants and how they see future tactical and strategical needs.
No more C-5 production and C-17 replacements are a big question mark. This could fuel the desire to have larger transport-capabilities available and thus favors the KC-30.

Another point is availability: NG+Airbus can deliver much faster since the plane already exists and is now testflying for the Australians in its tanker role.
Boeing has yet to start conversion of a 767 and even the fuel-boom has to be built.

achace
Posts: 368
Joined: 16 Feb 2006, 00:00
Location: Manila Philippines

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by achace »

Can anyone remember the philosophy behind the KC10 purchase?

Only ever saw one close up at an Aishow in Richmond Australia, and that was certainly fitted out with airline style seats.

The Air reserve fleet is a seemingly fragile group of airlines as evidenced by recent failures such as ATA, and if a multi-function fleet of KC45A can in a large part replace the cost of mainaining that reserve, it has to be good for the US taxpayer surely? Remember the KC45A uses its standard fuel tanks for refuelling missions, so it is always ready for an alternative role.

Just because the USAF didnt see it coming surely doesnt prevent them from taking advantage of something they were offered as a virtual freebee?

I know it is easy to become patriotic over these things, but at the end of the day, we are talking about a 5% difference in US content.

I suspect the KC45A will have more US content than the 787, so whats' the deal?

Cheers

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

achace wrote:Can anyone remember the philosophy behind the KC10 purchase?

Only ever saw one close up at an Aishow in Richmond Australia, and that was certainly fitted out with airline style seats.

The Air reserve fleet is a seemingly fragile group of airlines as evidenced by recent failures such as ATA, and if a multi-function fleet of KC45A can in a large part replace the cost of mainaining that reserve, it has to be good for the US taxpayer surely? Remember the KC45A uses its standard fuel tanks for refuelling missions, so it is always ready for an alternative role.

Just because the USAF didnt see it coming surely doesnt prevent them from taking advantage of something they were offered as a virtual freebee?

I know it is easy to become patriotic over these things, but at the end of the day, we are talking about a 5% difference in US content.

I suspect the KC45A will have more US content than the 787, so whats' the deal?

Cheers
What’s the deal? US laws require that the military use commercial transport (marine and air) for most operations. Currently, about 80% of military cargo is transported by commercial carriers; whether we like it or not (excepting outsized cargo like tanks, etc.) most cargo is transported commercial.

Putting the KC-45A to full use as a freighter will require a change of law and we all know how difficult it can be to get the US House of Representatives, Senate and, President to agree with changing a law that favors commercial interests. I can just see now the long line of industry lobbyists parading down Pennsylvania Avenue in both directions to ensure that these laws are not changed.

If the AF wants to buy a larger plane, they might, but let's all recognize that they will carry little cargo and off-load only about 100,000 pounds of fuel per sortie, and, the US taxpayer will pay the bill for larger than needed (and unused) capability.

achace
Posts: 368
Joined: 16 Feb 2006, 00:00
Location: Manila Philippines

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by achace »

Like I asked previously Smokejumper, what was the philosophy behind the KC10.

Are you saying they do not use its cargo and passenger carrying capacity?

Would have thought the KC10 and KC45 could be used in medevac, replacing the old C9's.

Cheers

User avatar
bits44
Posts: 1889
Joined: 03 Aug 2004, 00:00
Location: Vancouver CYVR

Re: U.S. Air force Tanker

Post by bits44 »

All you ever wanted to know about KC10's


http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=109


You'll note the capability to carry troops,medevacs, etc. is listed as a possible use, however aircraft configuration must be changed, additional crew are required, and as smokejumper has indicated they are very rarely used in those capacities.
There are no strangers in the world, just friends we have yet to meet.

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

achace wrote:Like I asked previously Smokejumper, what was the philosophy behind the KC10.

Are you saying they do not use its cargo and passenger carrying capacity?

Would have thought the KC10 and KC45 could be used in medevac, replacing the old C9's.

Cheers
There certainly is a need for a tanker larger than the KC-135; there ARE missions in which more than 4-8 fighters and 1-2 bombers are refueled. That was the rationale for the KC-10. But the facts remain that:
- most tanker sorties only off-load 6,000 pounds of so of fuel into 4-8 fighters (max off-load 48,000 pounds) or 1-2 bombers (off-load abut 120,000 pounds).
- The KC-135R can off-load up to 120,000 pounds of fuel (this meets the need).
- It is the KC-135 that needs to be replaced now, not the KC-10.
- only in rare situations is the cargo capability of tankers (regardless of which tanker) used.
- 80% of military cargo is carried by commmercial carriers (this is the law to encourage private contractors)
- There is an existing infrastructure of hangers that do not need to be replaced (perhaps both bidders should be required to build new hangers as part of their cost bid if their proposed plane does not fit existing hangers?).
- When the KC-10 (introduced in 1981 and due for replacement in 2020 or so) is replaced, the NGA KC-45 might be a good replacement, but of course, the newer A350 or B787 would be more modern.
- Perhaps NGA could bid a smaller plane (A330-100?) that meets the need and has lower fuel costs?

I do not question the quality or value of the NGA KC-45, only whether its cost and size exceed requirements. If it costs the same (total 40-50 year life cycle costs, including infrastructure) as a KC-767, then by all means buy the larger plane. BUT, if it costs more over the projected 40-50 year life and has capabilities that will rarely (or never) be used, then it is of no or limited value.

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

Let's see what happens, but (Aviation week reports that) Boeing may not submit a proposal in thetanker competition.

See: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... el=defense

This could be the worst of all possible outcomes for the competition (the Congress would probably demand an investigation and the procurement would be delayed) and the AF would not get the new tankers for several more years.

User avatar
bits44
Posts: 1889
Joined: 03 Aug 2004, 00:00
Location: Vancouver CYVR

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by bits44 »

I have heard from friends at Boeing that the no bid scenario is very real,

Having submitted their bid and finding serious flaws in the AF's evaluation process Boeing requested a review.

The new RFP is still tainted and heavily favours Airbus/NG which amounts to re--specifying to accomodate the errors the AF made in the first RFP, the GAO will probably review and reject the new RFP because of that.

Boeing however may say enough is enough either make it fair and equitable or we are not bidding. You can bet the congress of the United States would snap to attention and with a new President coming in November it would be handled forthwith, heads would roll at the DOD and Air Force procurement would be overhauled.
There are no strangers in the world, just friends we have yet to meet.

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

This is a situation similar to the one that NGA put the Air Force in when NGA stated that they would not bid unless the AF gave extra credit for larger capacities. If Boeing does not bid, the Congress will be highly incensed and probably look into the entire affair with long drawn-out hearings. A Boeing no-bid would be a loose-loose situation for the AF. I would expect them to re-consider the specification to ensure that Boeing will bid.

Also, if the AF continues along its’ current path, it has to realize that a new administration will take office in January. Regardless of whom is elected (Obama or McCain), there will an entire new management team in the Pentagon. If a contract is signed, it can be cancelled (probably with penalties paid to the contractor), so little would be gained by ignoring a fair procurement.

Most Americans simply want a fair competition that meets the intent of the requirement. If the AF wants a larger plane, they need to justify it and re-write the specification (and give all competitors the time to develop a new proposal and conduct the necessary tests). We want a product that meets the need at minimal cost.

User avatar
ElcoB
Posts: 677
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 00:00
Location: West-Flanders(Belgium)

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by ElcoB »

bits44 wrote:The new RFP is still tainted and heavily favours Airbus/NG ....
Huh? The final RFP is not even out, lots of changes still possible....
Boeing quitting? sigh....
Seems to me this is deliberatly spread rumour to intimidate decision-makers.

In the mean time I wonder how long all this procedures can last....will cost a fortune..
The USA really starts to look like a third world country...

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

I thought the RFP was released 5 days ago (August 5). see: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hiri ... QD92CS1H82

User avatar
ElcoB
Posts: 677
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 00:00
Location: West-Flanders(Belgium)

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by ElcoB »

See the release from the US Departement of Defense: :arrow: Pentagon Issues Draft Request for Proposals for New Tanker Contract

In very short:
  • There is a draft RFP (6 august)“Each offeror will be provided an equal amount of time to sit down and discuss face-to-face what their views are of the draft RFP,”
  • By the middle of August, Assad said, he expects DoD will issue the final request for proposals amendment. Both companies will have 45 days to submit their revisions to their proposals.
  • This takes the process out to Oct. 1, Assad said. Through late November, DoD officials will have discussions – both oral and written – with the companies about their proposals.
  • “We would then hope to close discussions around the end of November [or] early December, request a best and final offer -- or what we now term final proposal revisions -- in the first week in December, and complete our evaluations and award right around New Year's Eve,” Assad said.
There is no final RFP yet.

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

ElcoB wrote:See the release from the US Departement of Defense: :arrow: Pentagon Issues Draft Request for Proposals for New Tanker Contract

In very short:
  • There is a draft RFP (6 august)“Each offeror will be provided an equal amount of time to sit down and discuss face-to-face what their views are of the draft RFP,”
  • By the middle of August, Assad said, he expects DoD will issue the final request for proposals amendment. Both companies will have 45 days to submit their revisions to their proposals.
  • This takes the process out to Oct. 1, Assad said. Through late November, DoD officials will have discussions – both oral and written – with the companies about their proposals.
  • “We would then hope to close discussions around the end of November [or] early December, request a best and final offer -- or what we now term final proposal revisions -- in the first week in December, and complete our evaluations and award right around New Year's Eve,” Assad said.
There is no final RFP yet.
You are correct - I stand corrected;; it is a draft.

RC20
Posts: 547
Joined: 09 Dec 2005, 00:00

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by RC20 »

The attempt is being made to issue the same RFP with changes to favor Airbus.

The original RFP was not flawed, the execution of it by the Fir Force was.

There is far more than 5% content difference between the two proposals.

In fuel savings alone (vs what the A330 costs), the 767 pays for the entire contract (and that is extremely spot on, if you do not need or use the capability of the A330MRT, which is what we are talking about here).

And I will say again, if the US has the capability, then it should be at least a US based manufacturer. I do not say we should invent capabilities that are not present (C27 being a good example).

And I still have a huge issue with European companies taking US contracts when their own countries will not invest in their own defense anywhere close the degree that the US does.

If the Gates want to go the competition route, then Boeing has every right to be given the time to offer a 777 (which they previously and specifically queried on, asked, checked and were told no)

At that rate, Congress will refuse to approve the money and it dies until re-done.

And re-done should mean that they actually do a mission study, not someone awestruck by capability not needed.

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

Just to muddy the waters some more, here is a columnfrom today's Seattle Post-Intelligencer newspaper (James Wallace). See: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/ ... ker12.html


The column says:
"Boeing weighs options on tanker contract bid
The company could decide to pull out of competition
By JAMES WALLACE
P-I AEROSPACE REPORTER

The Boeing Co. is still weighing its options about how to proceed with the Pentagon's new guidelines for a lucrative contract to supply 179 air-refueling tankers to the Air Force, including bowing out of the controversial competition.

But Boeing will wait to see what the Pentagon's final requirements are before making a decision, according to people familiar with the company's thinking.

They disagreed with a report Monday in the industry magazine Aviation Week that quoted unidentified sources as saying Boeing was "strongly considering" not submitting a bid for the $35 billion tanker deal.

"That's too strong," a source told the Seattle P-I, referring to the published report, which drove Boeing's stock down $1.24 a share, or nearly 2 percent. "It's being considered, but it is only an option, and nothing has been decided."

Boeing is likely to know more about its tanker strategy after a meeting Tuesday with Pentagon officials, the source said.

Both Boeing and Northrop Grumman Corp. submitted comments to the Pentagon over the weekend about the draft request for proposals that was issued by the Pentagon last week. Boeing is concerned because the Pentagon has said it will give extra credit to the tanker that can offload more fuel, a development that favors the bigger Airbus A330-200, which Northrop would modify into a tanker.

Boeing's proposed tanker, based on its 767-200, is considerably smaller than the Airbus jet.

Pentagon officials will meet separately with Boeing and Northrop executives Tuesday at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, to go over in detail its draft tanker requirements. The Pentagon has said it hopes to be ready to issue a final request for proposals by the end of this week and pick the winner by the end of the year.

Loren Thompson, a noted defense expert with the Lexington Institute, a think tank in Arlington, Va., said it would be a mistake for Boeing to withdraw from the competition.

"They would lose the moral high ground they got with the GAO ruling, and it would likely hand the competition to Northrop," he said.

Earlier this year, Boeing lost the heated and closely watched tanker competition to Northrop Grumman and its partner, the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co., the parent of Airbus. Boeing was heavily favored, but the Air Force said the Northrop and EADS tanker better met its needs than Boeing's smaller tanker.

Boeing appealed, arguing that the Air Force had made serious mistakes.

The Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, sustained Boeing's appeal, saying that Boeing would have had a "substantial chance" of winning if the service had not made significant errors in reaching its decision.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates subsequently announced that a limited competition would be held to reconsider eight areas in which the GAO found serious flaws. Gates also stripped the Air Force of the final say on the new contract. Replacing the service will be a Pentagon review team led by John Young, the undersecretary for acquisitions.

If Boeing chooses not to bid for the disputed tanker contract, it would leave the Pentagon little choice but to award a sole-source contract to Northrop, or to change its tanker requirements or the timetable for picking the winner. If the Pentagon awarded the lucrative deal to Northrop without a competition, it could face a backlash in Congress.

Boeing's other options are either to protest the Pentagon's final tanker proposal, once it is issued, on grounds that it is not fair, or go ahead and bid and then decide whether to protest the contract award if Northrop wins.

Thompson said it would be better for Boeing to file another appeal of either the revised proposal or the final decision if the Pentagon picks Northrop.

"That's their best path forward," he said.

By refusing to bid, Boeing would be hoping to force the Pentagon to change the requirements and level the playing field between the 767 and A330, or delay the competition until Boeing has more time to make a competitive bid with a bigger plane, either the 767-400 or the 777, according to sources.

Northrop has effectively used this no-bid threat before.

Last year, Northrop said it would not bid on the tankers if the requirements favored the smaller 767. At the time, Northrop, with the help of Sen. John McCain, already had gotten the Air Force to drop language in a draft request for proposals that would have given consideration to a dispute between the U.S. and the European Union over Airbus subsidies. Critics argued that linking the subsidy issue to the tanker competition would favor Boeing.

After Northrop threatened not to bid on the tankers, the Air Force made changes in its final request for proposals that Boeing and its supporters in Congress have argued "kept Northrop in the game."

"It's impossible to predict the outcome," Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., a vocal Boeing supporter, said Monday when asked what the result would be in Congress if Boeing withdrew from the competition.

"I can tell you it would be very disconcerting," she added. "Congress insisted on having a competition, and if the (request for proposals) from the Pentagon has changed so dramatically that a competitor dropped out, it would not be viewed very well in Congress."

Asked if this could be an effective Boeing strategy, Murray said, "I don't know. That's the 64 million-dollar question. ... There are a lot of paths forward."

An appeal of the final request for proposals would effectively delay the competition until after a new administration takes over in January.

The contract for 179 tankers is the first of three deals potentially worth up to $100 billion to replace the Air Force's entire tanker fleet over 30 years.

Boeing has long argued that the Airbus A330 was too big and did not meet the original requirements spelled out by the Air Force.

In its draft proposal issued last week, the Pentagon left little doubt about what it wants.

"We now have highlighted and made very clear to (Boeing and Northrop) what the relative importance of each mission capability area is and ... the relative importance of our requirements," Shay Assad, director of defense procurement and acquisitions policy, said at a Pentagon briefing.

He said the team picking the winning tanker will give extra credit for the plane that can carry more fuel.

The Pentagon is expected to elaborate on that view, and explain how much extra credit will be given to fuel offload capability, during Tuesday's meetings.

Boeing's aircraft options, however, are pretty much limited to the 767-200.

It could offer the bigger 767- 400, which is about the same size as the A330-200. But changing planes now would require more than the 45 days the Pentagon is allowing to submit revised bids.

Boeing could even offer its 777, which is considerably bigger than the A330-200. But that plane might be too big and expensive. And Boeing's 777 production line in Everett is at capacity to meet commercial demand, and Boeing would be hard-pressed to find room on the production line any time soon.

P-I aerospace reporter James Wallace can be reached at 206-448-8040 or jameswallace@seattlepi.com. Read his Aerospace blog at blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace."

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

To those of our friends who wonder why the larger A-330 (KC-45A) tanker is not a preferred choice of many in the US, I offer an analogy.

Suppose your local police department (maybe Berlin, Brussels, London or Madrid) needs new patrol cars. They carefully draw up a list of requirements (based on identified needs) and release an RFP (Request for Proposals) to potential bidders. The requirements say the new patrol car must:
- have front seating for 2 officers
- have rear seating for 2 others (officers or prisoners)
- have storage room for a large radio set
- have storage room for extra equipment
- have acceleration from 0-100 mph (0-162 kph) in 30 seconds
- have a top speed of 120 mph (193 kph)
- be fuel efficient in order to use the minimum amount of fuel and save the city’s finances
- be able to park in existing garages and parking lots (to minimize additional costs to the taxpayer)
- be small enough to be parked in a limited area so to maximize the number of cars that can be parked in a given space.
- Have a turn radius of “x” (feet or meters) so to use existing roads.

Suppose Volkswagen and Renault each have vehicles that meet the requirement and offer to bid them. General Motors says, “We offer large SUV’s that will exceed the speed, acceleration and payload (passengers and storage); our SUV is 33% larger and heavier than the other competitors offerings and uses more fuel, and it also needs to have new garages built to accommodate it. Oh yes, you will not be able to park as many in your existing parking lots because it is larger and you’ll need to rebuild your roads to accommodate the greater weight and turn-radius. If you do not accept this SUV, we will not bid and you will have restricted competition.”

The police department thinks and says, “We want to maximize competition and ‘more, more, more’ is always better, even if we do not need it” and then awards the contract to General Motors.

What might be the outcry from the citizens of the city be when they learn that after paying for the patrol cars, they will also have to pay for new garages, more land for parking, rebuild roads and, more fuel to accomplish the same activity that the Volkswagen or Renault offering could do?

Comments?

User avatar
ElcoB
Posts: 677
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 00:00
Location: West-Flanders(Belgium)

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by ElcoB »

smokejumper wrote:....
Comments?
LOL, nice try.
But if it is that simple, how comes that making a decision, a clear choice, is so complicated?

smokejumper
Posts: 1033
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:00
Location: Northern Virginia USA

Re: U.S. Airforce Tanker

Post by smokejumper »

US politics is like making suasage. It is not a pretty process, but it eventually works and we get a result (often messy) that frequently does not please anyone!

:D :D :D

Post Reply