b.air MD83 is replaced by Girjet Fokker F100

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 15 Sep 2007, 20:51

If it is true the wet leased MD83 from Flighline has a 170 pax capacity, how does b.air intend to fill this plane if it uses it mainly to fly to Lyon (LYS) ? Or was it the only or cheapest wet lease available ? Don't think so ? Anyone any ideas ?

[title changed again on 26/09/2007 after recent developments]

Homo Aeroportus · Post by **Homo Aeroportus** » 15 Sep 2007, 22:21

Flightline D-FLTL is indeed configured as a Y170 full cabin.

Go figure what the load factor is on BRU-LYS...

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 15 Sep 2007, 22:39

On the very few occasions when I flew between BRU and LYS neither AF nor SN had a full load of pax (with aircraft up to approximately 100 pax) !!!

Homo Aeroportus · Post by **Homo Aeroportus** » 15 Sep 2007, 22:48

Thanks Air Key West.

Now I can figure. A full boat of 100 Pax will give an LF of 59%...

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 16 Sep 2007, 03:35

Manchester, ok!

But Lyon?
Hum, hum...

The 170 pax version is the highest density cabin...
I guess the few business pax that still remain loyal to the airline wouldn't apprecaite climbing on a charter sardine-box to Geneva...

More info and pics about G-FLTL (there is no D-FLTL) :

http://www.airfleets.net/photo/?search= ... |||||49790|

Post by **sn26567** » 17 Sep 2007, 10:04

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:Manchester, ok!

I have taken that Manchester flight several times. The Avro RJ 100 was never filled to capacity...

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 18 Sep 2007, 23:36

Is this the Flightline which almost landed on top of a building in Dublin?

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/9702-0.pdf

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 19 Sep 2007, 18:38

On another topic on this forum, it is being suggested that b.air will be wet leasing three Flightline MD83. The plane is too big for b.air. It is probably over 20 years old, and even half full, it will swallow a lot of fuel. Cannot see how these flights break even (let alone make a profit). Cannot imagine there were not any other (better suited) planes available for wet lease. Even if Flighline offered very fabourable wet lease conditions, fuel consumpsion and oil at over 80 dollars a barril will probably annul the advantages of a favourable lease contract.

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 19 Sep 2007, 19:04

Air Key West,
you are clearly the missing person at Brussels Airlines. Go and be a manager there, you obviously have all required capabilities! You have been far too humble up to now!!!

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 19 Sep 2007, 19:20

With the bad atmosphere at b.air right now, who would like to go and work there (even if it were to be a manager) ?

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:17

Hahaha Jan, he's got a point there

The MD-83 is not a very fuel-efficient bird...
The Avro neither.

I would be interested to know whether it is cheaper to operate a half-empty MD-83 or a fully-booked Avro...

If those Avro's are sent to Africa ASAP they can limit the loss, I think.
3 MD-83's would be weird, but why not, I m looking forward to see it in Bru air colours!!

Picture of the Flightline VLM Avro :
http://www.airfleets.net/show/?pic=82808

euroflyer · Post by **euroflyer** » 19 Sep 2007, 22:14

Wet lease a roughly 20 year old plane (and yes, I know old planes can be perfectly safe) of a type you do not see that much anymore in Europe nowadays (SAS, AUA, Alitalia, Iberia etcetera are all getting rid of their MD's step by step) will not really increase trust in the airline and its operations with the "normal customer", especially those from outside Belgium who do not have a rest of "fly belgian" attitude left. How cheap it maybe was economically to go for that wetlease, it might still have been the totally wrong step ..

And I know the perfect managers at Bru.Air have had all these thoughts as well still, sorry I cannot understand their decision - but maybe that is not necessary, I am just the paying customer

euroflyer · Post by **euroflyer** » 19 Sep 2007, 22:18

fcw wrote:Is this the Flightline which almost landed on top of a building in Dublin?

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/9702-0.pdf

Oh how promising, better to turn the lights off in Brussels in the future during the night, or you might have a MD83 parked in your Garden

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 20 Sep 2007, 00:56

euroflyer wrote:Wet lease a roughly 20 year old plane (and yes, I know old planes can be perfectly safe) of a type you do not see that much anymore in Europe nowadays (SAS, AUA, Alitalia, Iberia etcetera are all getting rid of their MD's step by step) will not really increase trust in the airline and its operations with the "normal customer", especially those from outside Belgium who do not have a rest of "fly belgian" attitude left. How cheap it maybe was economically to go for that wetlease, it might still have been the totally wrong step ..

Have spent half an hour to-night looking at the movements at BGY, from the car park : at take-off, the MD83 (Alitalia) makes much more noise than a modern jet, Boeing or Airbus.

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 20 Sep 2007, 12:24

Yes, the MD83 is an old bird. I even wonder if the figure 83 doesn't refer to the year these type of aircraft were first delivered to airlines. (I'm not saying old aircraft cannot be safe to fly, but they just need a lot of costly fuel).

Homo Aeroportus · Post by **Homo Aeroportus** » 20 Sep 2007, 20:26

Air Key West wrote:I even wonder if the figure 83 doesn't refer to the year these type of aircraft were first delivered to airlines.

The MD-80 family, actually the new variant of the DC9, entered service in autumn 1980.

If it weren't for its JT8D's noise (originally) and high fuel consumption, I think it would still be in service in high numbers.

SN1203 · Post by **SN1203** » 20 Sep 2007, 20:56

Air Key West wrote:The plane is too big for b.air.

So 164 seats on a B737-400 is OK, while 170 seats on an MD83 is too big?

Air Key West wrote:It is probably over 20 years old

It is 17 years old, which is not "over 20 years old".

Air Key West wrote:and even half full, it will swallow a lot of fuel

Once again, it is not because a flight is half full that it is loss making.

Air Key West wrote:Cannot see how these flights break even (let alone make a profit).

It might be a little more difficult, but it's possible though

Air Key West wrote:Cannot imagine there were not any other (better suited) planes available for wet lease.

Send an e-mail with better alternatives to the management!

Even if Flighline offered very fabourable wet lease conditions, fuel consumpsion and oil at over 80 dollars a barril will probably annul the advantages of a favourable lease contract.

I don't think that any lease contract is very favourable.

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:If those Avro's are sent to Africa ASAP they can limit the loss, I think.

Glad you at least included an "I think" at the end of that sentence

Sigh...

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 21 Sep 2007, 16:28

To sn1203 : is a 164-seats 737 ok and a 170-seats MD83 not ? The problem is that apparently they are going to use the MD83 to fly to LYS and MAN (they would not send their 737s there, I think, not enough pax).
The MD83 would be ok to Malaga, Faro and other destinations with many tourists. If they used the MD83 on high density routes, it would be ok, but this doesn't seem to be the case, or do you have information to the contrary ?
Why would it not be profitable even half full : because of the high fuel bill which comes with the MD83 and b.air low fares (most LCCs, FR and EZY for instance, have very young fleets with low fuel consumption).
Indeed, wet lease contracts are probably never cheap. So, do something concrete to avoid them.
There is no point in sending alternatives to b.air 's management : they don't listen to their customers.
Have a look for available wet leases on www. globalplanesearch.com

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 21 Sep 2007, 18:06

A 170-seater is replacing a 85-100 seater while grounding the latters which are also leased planes that have a monthly or yearly cost.

At the same time the airline is showing off its employed pilots that they don't care about them leaving (becaus that's the original reason for the grounded planes), and that rather than finding some good solutions for everyone, they are extending the problems.

I wonder what the atmosphere would be like in the briefing room, when Flightline flightcrew will cross Brussels Airlines crew who earn half less...

From December, 2 Bae's will be sent to Africa, and will limit the damage to a certain amount.

But you think they gonna break even on the MD-83's?

I don't think so, because they are making losses even on the Avro's...
This HR policy is gonna cost them alot of money...

And I'm sure there are alot of internal conflicts within SN itself.
The marketing department and routing department are doing a great job.
The HR department is a total disaster.
The management are sandwiched between shareholders and their empty pockets.

The pilots themselves are doing a great job, flying everyday incident-less point to point, accepting the older planes, the fewer advantages compared to other airlines and the filled rosters.

Thumbs up guys!!

BRUCONVENTION · Post by **BRUCONVENTION** » 21 Sep 2007, 18:16

You seem to forget an important point. This MD83 is an ACMI lease... which means that SN has to pay Flightline for every flown hours. It doesn't really surprise me that they've selected the shortest routes in this case. They would fill up the MD80 to AGP... but they would have to pay 6 hours instead of 2H30 when they fly to LYS

The second point is the lack of availability on the market at moment. I'm sure SN asked many operators if they could provide a pane.. but there is simply almost nothing avaialble at the moment. All airlines are expending and have often to lease planes from other carriers to grow rapidly.

Finally, all airlines (with almost no exception at the moment) are facing problems with their crew. All fleets are expanding and pilots are in short number, demand is higher than offer => pilots are free to move anytime and are secured to find a job within a few minutes. Consequently many airlines have no other choice than leasing planes elsewhere