http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... tions.html
A student pilot on his second solo in circuits around the airfield crashed after ATC asked him to establish go-around and to vacate the runway axis towards the north due to an incoming bigger aircraft.
The student stalled while executing the maneuver as his airplane was still in landing configuration.
Very sad, that's what they call JAR-training...
More than the ATC, the one to blame is his instructor who did not teach his student the proper go-around procedures...
It's one of the youngest (if not the youngest) pilot fatality in JAR history...
16 years old student pilot on second solo dead
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FLY4HOURS.BE
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16 years old student pilot on second solo dead
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Re: 16 years old student pilot on second solo dead
It could be possible, but ATC is also responsible for it I think. It what I calls a bad traffic management. And in ebci it happened often:FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... tions.html
A student pilot on his second solo in circuits around the airfield crashed after ATC asked him to establish go-around and to vacate the runway axis towards the north due to an incoming bigger aircraft.
The student stalled while executing the maneuver as his airplane was still in landing configuration.
Very sad, that's what they call JAR-training...
More than the ATC, the one to blame is his instructor who did not teach his student the proper go-around procedures...
It's one of the youngest (if not the youngest) pilot fatality in JAR history...
- I was once 3nm final and they allowed a RYR for a rolling T/O of course they didn't do it and of course and I was about to initiate a go around. Who if faulty pilot or controller for that case no? But atc told me to continue approach ryr was about to take-off and keep me till 1nm final because he trough ryr would T/O and what happened? A G/A above RYR I will say I was 200-300ft above and the apologies of the controller who after say break immediately to the right and climb 3 times because ryr start his roll
- I was also once on final, 5 miles at 120kt
so I was not flying slowly, and they ask me to brake immediately to the right! I refuse because there was a traffic so I already avoid an air miss and turn to the left after acknowledge of the controller and his apologies ( so you see his situation awareness). When I finished my left break I saw the RYR and I did understand why immediately he was max 3nm behind me while I was required to break.Just to say that sometimes pilot could do errors because they were taken in non usual story. An instructor cannot prepare you for these things as it not happened every day. Ad with that the stress with the second solo and the experience of the student (+/- 15H) and you will know while it unfortunately finishes badly for the student. And I know it not happened to me and other student/ pilot will suffer of those things if nothing is done. Ad with it a pilot that talk to atc in a foreign language as it now happening more and more, and this lead to a less situation awareness.
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FLY4HOURS.BE
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Yeah ATC does make mistakes. I ve near-missed sometimes too.
The great problem is that controllers often get a "airliners training" and get to handle smaller general aviation traffic on a daily basis.
In this incident we see that the ATC gave a little complicated task to the young pilot, it's true.
The instructor though is responsible for putting him on the plane alone. In solo circuit he has to see that his student is able to handle a go-around before letting him go alone.
The maneuver itself is not difficult, it's probably more that the young lad started to panick and didn t know what to do.
I'm against putting 16 year old students on solo, flying needs a certain maturity which can be found at nearly 18. Why is flying ok at 16 when you can only start do drive a car at 17 and 9 months?
ps: I ve seen students doing 360's on final, as they were insructed to do by ATC...
The great problem is that controllers often get a "airliners training" and get to handle smaller general aviation traffic on a daily basis.
In this incident we see that the ATC gave a little complicated task to the young pilot, it's true.
The instructor though is responsible for putting him on the plane alone. In solo circuit he has to see that his student is able to handle a go-around before letting him go alone.
The maneuver itself is not difficult, it's probably more that the young lad started to panick and didn t know what to do.
I'm against putting 16 year old students on solo, flying needs a certain maturity which can be found at nearly 18. Why is flying ok at 16 when you can only start do drive a car at 17 and 9 months?
ps: I ve seen students doing 360's on final, as they were insructed to do by ATC...
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Some 16 year olds are more mature and responsible than adults... so I don't believe it is a question of maturity here.FLY4HOURS.BE wrote: I'm against putting 16 year old students on solo, flying needs a certain maturity which can be found at nearly 18. Why is flying ok at 16 when you can only start do drive a car at 17 and 9 months?
It is, as most of us said already, and in my eyes as well, a question of instruction. Dropping a student pilot in a controlled area, without being capable of doing such basic manoeuvres is not what I call a good instructor... We don't know the details but that is how it looks like right now...
Following the JAR-FCL rules, you can have a PPL licence at 17 years old , and you must be 16 years old for first solo flight, so stop saying "18 is the age for "certain maturity"". I suppose that JAR authorities are aware of what's possible and what's not possible!
About this particular incident, we don't know exactly what's happen. This forum is not the place to discuss about responsabilities!!! (Same thing about the TAM crash in Sao Paulo Congonhas airport or other related accidents).
for information, you can find requirements about JAR-FCL crew licencing here: http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/fr/index.htm (french) and here: http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/nl/index.htm (dutch).
About this particular incident, we don't know exactly what's happen. This forum is not the place to discuss about responsabilities!!! (Same thing about the TAM crash in Sao Paulo Congonhas airport or other related accidents).
for information, you can find requirements about JAR-FCL crew licencing here: http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/fr/index.htm (french) and here: http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/nl/index.htm (dutch).
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FLY4HOURS.BE
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Well I think everyone knows the JAR-FCL rules.
The 16 year old maturity is my opinion and it's based on facts. I'v seen 16 year old kids going for their first solo's and I can tell you that they were far from being confident to make it back (depends of the personnality)...
Going from the bicycle to the airplane without passing through the car is a large step. And believe me, the first time they are on the highway, the youngest almost all do it in their pants. (I once found myself pushing on my brakes when a young "student-driver" with the famous "L" sticked on the rear-window, literally stopped on a busy highway 100m ahead of me, and not in the security-strokes...)
So do you see a 16 year old kid doing circuits between 737's, A320's, RJ's,...? It's hard to believe but the regulations are there.
These regulations come from the US where flying is like driving and where kids fly with their parents from their very young age.
The 16 year old maturity is my opinion and it's based on facts. I'v seen 16 year old kids going for their first solo's and I can tell you that they were far from being confident to make it back (depends of the personnality)...
Going from the bicycle to the airplane without passing through the car is a large step. And believe me, the first time they are on the highway, the youngest almost all do it in their pants. (I once found myself pushing on my brakes when a young "student-driver" with the famous "L" sticked on the rear-window, literally stopped on a busy highway 100m ahead of me, and not in the security-strokes...)
So do you see a 16 year old kid doing circuits between 737's, A320's, RJ's,...? It's hard to believe but the regulations are there.
These regulations come from the US where flying is like driving and where kids fly with their parents from their very young age.
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Tommypilot
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I understand your opinion, however I have seen many drivers without the "famous" L sticker on their car driving like crazy, ignoring signs etc...they may have their driver license and be older then 16-17-18 years but if you let these people fly solo like the way they drive with their car...FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:Going from the bicycle to the airplane without passing through the car is a large step. And believe me, the first time they are on the highway, the youngest almost all do it in their pants. (I once found myself pushing on my brakes when a young "student-driver" with the famous "L" sticked on the rear-window, literally stopped on a busy highway 100m ahead of me, and not in the security-strokes...)
The first time that they are on the highway...doing in their pants? Come on...
Now back on topic...
Being a very sad incident...the responsibility lies imho with ATC and the student's instructor in the first place! And NOT because the student wasn't 20 years (or whatever) with driver license...
Greetz,
Tommy
The word "impossible" is not in my dictionary! - Napoleon Bonaparte
The word "impossible" is not in my dictionary! - Napoleon Bonaparte
I don’t know the details, but I can visualize the following scenario - the student was flying low and slow with:
Flaps 40̊ (= high drag)
Carburetor heat full on (= low power)
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Cessna procedures for a balked landing (go around) state:
Throttle - FULL OPEN
Carburetor heat - COLD
Flaps - 20̊ IMMEDIATELY
Accomplishing these tasks requires the pilot’s attention inside the cockpit for a few moments when he should be looking out. Applying full power with full flaps requires a trim change which can be difficult to hold until the trim wheel can be adjusted. Also, the flap retraction results in a pitching moment, which must be corrected with the elevator - no big deal in the air, but another distraction when close to the ground. Many 150s do not have detents on the flap lever, so the flap toggle switch must be held for a few seconds (one thousand one, one thousand two, ...) until the flaps are at the required setting. All these actions become reflexive for a pilot experienced in a 150 or 172, but may not have been for the student. He could have omitted a step or two and thus did not have sufficient power or had too high drag to maintain adequate climb speed, so stalled and spun in.
Among the changes Cessna made for the 152 and later model 172s was to limit flap extension to 30̊ and to put detents on the flap switch. The limit on flap extension was primarily to address the go around hazard with 40̊.
Flaps 40̊ (= high drag)
Carburetor heat full on (= low power)
===========================
Cessna procedures for a balked landing (go around) state:
Throttle - FULL OPEN
Carburetor heat - COLD
Flaps - 20̊ IMMEDIATELY
Accomplishing these tasks requires the pilot’s attention inside the cockpit for a few moments when he should be looking out. Applying full power with full flaps requires a trim change which can be difficult to hold until the trim wheel can be adjusted. Also, the flap retraction results in a pitching moment, which must be corrected with the elevator - no big deal in the air, but another distraction when close to the ground. Many 150s do not have detents on the flap lever, so the flap toggle switch must be held for a few seconds (one thousand one, one thousand two, ...) until the flaps are at the required setting. All these actions become reflexive for a pilot experienced in a 150 or 172, but may not have been for the student. He could have omitted a step or two and thus did not have sufficient power or had too high drag to maintain adequate climb speed, so stalled and spun in.
Among the changes Cessna made for the 152 and later model 172s was to limit flap extension to 30̊ and to put detents on the flap switch. The limit on flap extension was primarily to address the go around hazard with 40̊.
right, but you have also to push the yoke forward to help the plane acquiring speed before climb.DC3 Fan wrote: Flaps 40̊ (= high drag)
Carburetor heat full on (= low power)
===========================
Cessna procedures for a balked landing (go around) state:
Throttle - FULL OPEN
Carburetor heat - COLD
Flaps - 20̊ IMMEDIATELY
As a detail, the first solo flight did not come with "full flaps landing knowledge" in many cases, but with minimal flaps, to avoid what you're saying...
As I said earlier, we don't know exactly what's happen...
Last thing, fortunately, pilot has not to know bicycle or car driving before beginnig pilot instruction!!!
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FLY4HOURS.BE
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Don t know whether this was the case but in a decent flight school you will learn to put it on cold/off when you are established on final...Carburetor heat full on (= low power)
I've seen many instructors monitoring their solo students on te radio and I know what I'm talking about. Young pilots under 18 often have confidence problems and tend to panick. I've seen instructors sweating when their students didn t readback ATC instructions: any sign of life was welcome.
I remind you that if you're younger than 18 you need your parent's signature to start training.
(I don t know if it's for this reason but our managers does not accept students under 18 to start training with us...)
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