What in heaven's name is going on with this forum? Where has the nice group of aviation-enthusiasts gone? Who can tell me?
Could it be that we don't hear anymore of certain members because of some childish behavior coming from some "snottebellen" who are thinking that they know everything? Or because of the "positive approach" shown by some "aviation optimists"?
I think the people i've mentioned here above will recognize themselves, so I'm feeling free to ask to those "snottebel experts" : if someone counters your expertise, stop crying and be open to other opinions (or I can rephrase that as : GROW UP!)
To the "aviation optimists" : try this one : "Always look at the bright side of life!"
And maybe some nice guys will come back to the forum, to share their knowledge with us all...
Where the *censored* is this forum going to?
Rago.
What exactly do you want from the forums? Perhaps a question that everyone should give some consideration to - general chit-chat or specific information.
Personally I get frustrated at times by a lack of "hard fact" but if you can spend the time to trawl through the dross you can usually find what you want, although I do find that requests often get buried and dropped down the postings list quickly sometimes and then get missed by "serious" enthusiasts.
Dependant upon what you want there are other places to visit or people to talk to. Here in Belgium, unlike the UK for example, the emphasis is not on the data side of spotting and few spotters know one another so info does not get around as easily. One way is to join a closed group offering the sort of info you seek, but these are often very specific in their scope and may not offer what you seek.
Luchtzak is aimed at a very wide audience which has both pros and cons. I guess we all have to compromise in order to keep the site otherwise it may wither and die.
Meerkat
What exactly do you want from the forums? Perhaps a question that everyone should give some consideration to - general chit-chat or specific information.
Personally I get frustrated at times by a lack of "hard fact" but if you can spend the time to trawl through the dross you can usually find what you want, although I do find that requests often get buried and dropped down the postings list quickly sometimes and then get missed by "serious" enthusiasts.
Dependant upon what you want there are other places to visit or people to talk to. Here in Belgium, unlike the UK for example, the emphasis is not on the data side of spotting and few spotters know one another so info does not get around as easily. One way is to join a closed group offering the sort of info you seek, but these are often very specific in their scope and may not offer what you seek.
Luchtzak is aimed at a very wide audience which has both pros and cons. I guess we all have to compromise in order to keep the site otherwise it may wither and die.
Meerkat
Understandable, but (some of) those guys simply don't put anything on the different fora anymore because of the way some people are reacting.elnombre wrote:Some of those who work in aviation have been advised not to post information on the internet because of security concerns. That is the only reason.
Your signiture line is truer than you think..
@ Meerkat:
I'm (almost) finding everything what I'm looking for on this site, but I'm not talking about the information you can or can't get!
I'm just putting some questions around the change of mentality, which is chasing away some fine and interesting people.
Leave for a moment your "paradise-impression" about the forum, and ask some people about their opinion concerning the forum...
I can tell you that a lot of people don't contribute actively on the forum anymore, just because they're fed up with some childish behavior especially from a group well known as the "snottebellen-brigade".
And I just call it a pity to lose some interesting sources of information and/or knowledge in that way.
Maybe I'm the only one who has the "balls" to put this in a topic, but I'm convinced that a lot of members are thinking the same...
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Vinnie-Winnie
- Posts: 955
- Joined: 01 Jul 2004, 00:00
- Location: London
Rago wrote:I can tell you that a lot of people don't contribute actively on the forum anymore, just because they're fed up with some childish behavior especially from a group well known as the "snottebellen-brigade".
And I just call it a pity to lose some interesting sources of information and/or knowledge in that way.
Maybe I'm the only one who has the "balls" to put this in a topic, but I'm convinced that a lot of members are thinking the same...
Well indeed I also find that some members who used to post a lot of interesting but sometimes very controversial things or ideas don't seem to post anything anymore! Can think of broken 747 or an australian for example who for whatever reason don't post anything anymore!
I find it sad indeed because if you balance the pros and cons of some people's contribution the pros win easily!
Having spoken to Avro well indeed I got the meaning of snottebellen-brigade wrong
To all moderators sorry didn't point the finger at you! Do find you a bit harsh sometimes but yeah one has to make sure this forum doesn't get out of hand.@Meerkat:
I did post I think a very interesting summary of an article found in the economist and no-one hardly read it or even commented on it! These were hard facts and yeah very frustrating to have spend at least 20 minutes on it for absolutely nothing! Shame I wanted to post another summary of a Businessweek article about boeing's revival but decided to leave it for now....
So one interesting question is: Where is this community going?
Last edited by Vinnie-Winnie on 06 Nov 2005, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Comet
- Posts: 6484
- Joined: 05 Jul 2003, 00:00
- Location: Scarborough, North Yorkshire, England
- Contact:
I agree that this is not the forum it once was, and I don't want to be banned again for stating a point of view, but there it is. There is more of an "atmosphere" on here now than there ever used to be, and to be honest the forums are not as friendly as they once were.
This is a shame, as Luchtzak used to be the best aviation site on the internet, but now it is drowning in a sea of stupid, petty and crass rules like we have on the spotting forums now. Threads locked for containing banned words in the title, such as "photos" for example. No other aviation forum locks threads for such a petty "offence" as that! People should be able to choose a title for their spotting reports, like they once were able to, and like they can on other forums.
This is a shame, as Luchtzak used to be the best aviation site on the internet, but now it is drowning in a sea of stupid, petty and crass rules like we have on the spotting forums now. Threads locked for containing banned words in the title, such as "photos" for example. No other aviation forum locks threads for such a petty "offence" as that! People should be able to choose a title for their spotting reports, like they once were able to, and like they can on other forums.
Sabena and Sobelair - gone but never forgotten.
Louise
Louise
Ok Comet, listen very carefully, I shall say this only once: your comment had nothing to do with the first post made by Rago. I and a lot of other crewmembers agree with him that the "quality" has decreased, and this has nothing to do with the rules. We all are missing the good, juicy(?), hot, interesting, and so on .... discussions. And if a member don't like it here Comet, he of she can always quit visiting Luchtzak and find him of herself another forum.
Things indeed change with time and don't stay as they are unfortunately. I agree with you that this forum is going through ups and downs like every forum does. However we try to keep the atmosphere as enjoyable as possible around.
If you guys/girls have any constructive suggestions to make don't hesitate. We will be open to any of them. We know that things are not how they used to be anymore, but it's not easy to find solutions. So if you have any. Go ahead and PM us or do it in this topic.
Now to Comet:
When a forum is getting popular and bigger with time, rules need to be installed otherwise it's becoming a total mess in the forums. You know that very well, since you instored the spotting rules with us when you were moderator. And I don't recall you being against them do I ?
I wonder why you are always coming up with the same story about the locked thread. I told you that it was a mistake (if I recall correctly) and that your topic had soon after been re opened. !!!!
Cheers
Chris
If you guys/girls have any constructive suggestions to make don't hesitate. We will be open to any of them. We know that things are not how they used to be anymore, but it's not easy to find solutions. So if you have any. Go ahead and PM us or do it in this topic.
Now to Comet:
When a forum is getting popular and bigger with time, rules need to be installed otherwise it's becoming a total mess in the forums. You know that very well, since you instored the spotting rules with us when you were moderator. And I don't recall you being against them do I ?
I wonder if you sometimes read my responses. Over the past 2 weeks I told you the reason for this at least 5 times (via PM and in the forums). But you never seem to read them. I won't give you the reasons anymore. Do a search and you'll find the response.Comet wrote: Threads locked for containing banned words in the title, such as "photos" for example. No other aviation forum locks threads for such a petty "offence" as that! People should be able to choose a title for their spotting reports, like they once were able to, and like they can on other forums.
I wonder why you are always coming up with the same story about the locked thread. I told you that it was a mistake (if I recall correctly) and that your topic had soon after been re opened. !!!!
Cheers
Chris
Re: Where the *censored* is this forum going to?
It's simply getting bigger -> drawing the masses and inevitably the extermely high level we were used to decrases, when you look at the mean quality of the posts. But if you filter the ones which you don't like (topic that is), you'll see that it's not that bad...Rago wrote:What in heaven's name is going on with this forum? Where has the nice group of aviation-enthusiasts gone? Who can tell me?
Of course some of the younger members have other interests than you and me, and inevitably they have less technical and economical knowledge and interest (hey that's normal they are young)
Hey don't be too harsh on them. They have different priorities. While you and me don't care for every plane landing @ BRU, some of the youngest members will label "special" a plane that you would not raise your eyes for anymore. Just because I have seen a "special" 10 times does not mean that everyone has....Rago wrote: I think the people i've mentioned here above will recognize themselves, so I'm feeling free to ask to those "snottebel experts" : if someone counters your expertise, stop crying and be open to other opinions (or I can rephrase that as : GROW UP!)
I must admit I reduced my presence and my postings even more, partly because of this, but not only.Rago wrote: And maybe some nice guys will come back to the forum, to share their knowledge with us all...
Suggestion: Look @ how Airliners.net solved part of the problem of a "generation" clash
Av Prefs&Polls Thx for reading till down here
TriStar
Hey this was my 900th post
@ Comet: Are you doing this on purpose, or are you really that (fill in what you think this must be)? You were one of the members that helped make the new rules, you never complained untill you were 'fired' and became a 'normal' member. We have already said, in very special cases, a change to the standard title is allowed (AN225, AN124, A380 .......), but everytime there is a case like that, you can't resist to push the 'report-button'. If you think that's the way to take some revenge to us, you' re totally wrong, every time there is a report, and I see your name is in it, I don't even respond to it, to make it clear, it's deleted immediatly ... Give respect and you will receive respect ...
About Rago his complaint:
I can perfectly understand it, there are several members who think they are THE experts. When someone with inside-info posts some of the news he recieved, but can't reveal his source, respect this and don't ask again or the chance excists he/she will stop to give some of his 'hot news', when other people show something, show some respect and don't give negative comments just to pretend you're a specialist and only comment when you have something to say in addition to previous posts ... there are quite a few members who only respond when they can say somethinh negative, but almost never give some constuctive comment (and there are some who have been warned before), also stop with provocate others with giving replies you know they will give response to complain afterwards, this only gives useless discussions here and extra work to the webteam ...
About Rago his complaint:
I can perfectly understand it, there are several members who think they are THE experts. When someone with inside-info posts some of the news he recieved, but can't reveal his source, respect this and don't ask again or the chance excists he/she will stop to give some of his 'hot news', when other people show something, show some respect and don't give negative comments just to pretend you're a specialist and only comment when you have something to say in addition to previous posts ... there are quite a few members who only respond when they can say somethinh negative, but almost never give some constuctive comment (and there are some who have been warned before), also stop with provocate others with giving replies you know they will give response to complain afterwards, this only gives useless discussions here and extra work to the webteam ...
I would also like to express my opinion in this discussions. Two years ago when I started writing on the website it was really a nice place to post your ideas and your enthousiasme about aviation.
Now I also have the feeling that everytime we post something negative about Belgium aviation we get attacked immediately by some members. It feels like you can never post a negative thing about the aviation in Belgium. Also when posting something positive from abroad that might get in the way of Belgium aviation you get attacked immediately. And this way of attacking writers gets these writers of that post to attack the one who responded in an agressive way and then it all starts. I see this a lot for the moment, with my posts but also with post of many other users and I really think it's a pitty. So I would ask also to everybody not to react in a negative, with this I mean an agressive way, to a post of somebody but just express your opinion and be open for the opinion of other people and also be open for negative news in aviation. Not everything is going perfect, also bad things happen and maybe some people get on your nerves because of their opinion. But let it be like this. Everybody has his right to express his opinion, how extreme and annoying it can be to you.
So I hope all the enthiousiast who were posting and are probably still reading the forum but not posting anything. Please come back. And to the moderaters and officials of this website, be more tolerant to everybody. We are just enthiousiasts just like you and we all love aviation but have different opinions. That what makes this website so interesting.
Now I also have the feeling that everytime we post something negative about Belgium aviation we get attacked immediately by some members. It feels like you can never post a negative thing about the aviation in Belgium. Also when posting something positive from abroad that might get in the way of Belgium aviation you get attacked immediately. And this way of attacking writers gets these writers of that post to attack the one who responded in an agressive way and then it all starts. I see this a lot for the moment, with my posts but also with post of many other users and I really think it's a pitty. So I would ask also to everybody not to react in a negative, with this I mean an agressive way, to a post of somebody but just express your opinion and be open for the opinion of other people and also be open for negative news in aviation. Not everything is going perfect, also bad things happen and maybe some people get on your nerves because of their opinion. But let it be like this. Everybody has his right to express his opinion, how extreme and annoying it can be to you.
So I hope all the enthiousiast who were posting and are probably still reading the forum but not posting anything. Please come back. And to the moderaters and officials of this website, be more tolerant to everybody. We are just enthiousiasts just like you and we all love aviation but have different opinions. That what makes this website so interesting.
I have to say I agree with most things written above. The quality we had has declined, that's for sure. Youngsters often have another perspective at looking at facts, rumours, happenings, ... and in that point I can follow L-1011 very clearly, but sometimes they can exagurate ( and usually allot ) !
I know, nobody is perfect, we all have our disadvantages, but that's something we have to live with. I am sure the moderators won't let this get out of hand. And for the more serious among us, you can still filter the replies you read. At least that's what I do (not saying I am a serious type), I simply don't read replies by certain members anymore because I know there is nothing constructive in it.
What I have also noted is that more and more, members are giving comment on each other instead of on the topic (even I sometimes catch myself doing it) ... Something that you rarely saw here few years ago ...
I guess we'll see how everything turns out. Those guys will get older and grow up, like Rago said, but then, there will be new youngsters ...
Greetz,
Andries
I know, nobody is perfect, we all have our disadvantages, but that's something we have to live with. I am sure the moderators won't let this get out of hand. And for the more serious among us, you can still filter the replies you read. At least that's what I do (not saying I am a serious type), I simply don't read replies by certain members anymore because I know there is nothing constructive in it.
What I have also noted is that more and more, members are giving comment on each other instead of on the topic (even I sometimes catch myself doing it) ... Something that you rarely saw here few years ago ...
I guess we'll see how everything turns out. Those guys will get older and grow up, like Rago said, but then, there will be new youngsters ...
Greetz,
Andries Don't dream your life, live your dream !!!
I think it has to do with the amount of members at luchtzak.
More people have more opinions and ideas about what should or can be posted in the forums.
My opinions were also not always the ones other people wanted to hear and my mistake was that I didn't respect other persons opinions.
In that time I took the decision to pull out of the forum for a while.
After some months I noticed I did miss the forum and also other people opinions which I do respect now!
People have different ideas about life, politics, aviation and forums.
You don't need to react on posts that are not interested for you or you totally don't agree with.
Just give your comments on things that interest you and read articles you like.
If you do this you keep the forum a nice, friendly place to share your aviation opinion.
If you want to make changes in articles, start with your own posts
Greetz,
Erwin
More people have more opinions and ideas about what should or can be posted in the forums.
My opinions were also not always the ones other people wanted to hear and my mistake was that I didn't respect other persons opinions.
In that time I took the decision to pull out of the forum for a while.
After some months I noticed I did miss the forum and also other people opinions which I do respect now!
People have different ideas about life, politics, aviation and forums.
You don't need to react on posts that are not interested for you or you totally don't agree with.
Just give your comments on things that interest you and read articles you like.
If you do this you keep the forum a nice, friendly place to share your aviation opinion.
If you want to make changes in articles, start with your own posts
Greetz,
Erwin
A Whole Different Animal
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Robin_Bamps
Thanks for starting this topic Rago. This is the ideal moment now to share Bampske's opinion too for once.
When I joined the community three years ago, it was a friendly group of aviation enthusiasts sharing their experiences, infos and thoughts. But as other members stated, the quality of the forum has extremely dropped down.
On the forum itself :
1) Own opinions often don't have a place => group attack follows
2) Sideview pictures are waste (Note: I'm surely not the single spotter preferring such pics, I have correspondents all over Europe with that opinion)
3) Sharing pictures to give people an idea is seen as SPAM
Due to a lot of unprofessional and unfounded topics, rumours and discussions, people from outside the community have the opinion that Luchtzak is a collection of "kleine kinderen, tooghangers en vrouwenzotten" (quote from a Belgian spotter).
Because of the (sometimes) rude atmosphere, I even sent a mail to Bart about a month ago to cancel my membership. Until now nothing happened, don't know why...
Regards, Robin Bamps.
Note for some mods : Feel free to delete parts of my text, I'm used to it.
When I joined the community three years ago, it was a friendly group of aviation enthusiasts sharing their experiences, infos and thoughts. But as other members stated, the quality of the forum has extremely dropped down.
On the forum itself :
1) Own opinions often don't have a place => group attack follows
2) Sideview pictures are waste (Note: I'm surely not the single spotter preferring such pics, I have correspondents all over Europe with that opinion)
3) Sharing pictures to give people an idea is seen as SPAM
Due to a lot of unprofessional and unfounded topics, rumours and discussions, people from outside the community have the opinion that Luchtzak is a collection of "kleine kinderen, tooghangers en vrouwenzotten" (quote from a Belgian spotter).
Because of the (sometimes) rude atmosphere, I even sent a mail to Bart about a month ago to cancel my membership. Until now nothing happened, don't know why...
Regards, Robin Bamps.
Note for some mods : Feel free to delete parts of my text, I'm used to it.
Robin_Bamps wrote:Note for some mods : Feel free to delete parts of my text, I'm used to it.
Your asking for it ...
Please include the true reason why you asked to delete your account ...Robin_Bamps wrote:Because of the (sometimes) rude atmosphere, I even sent a mail to Bart about a month ago to cancel my membership. Until now nothing happened, don't know why...
maybe it might help to adapt all member's profile with his/her link to aviation, such as cockpit crew, cabin crew, private pilot , spotter, ground staff, enthousiast, newby, engineer,........
This might help to put all topics/replies into the right perspective.
I do realize that it is almost impossible to check te correctness, but let's hope everybody plays the game in a fair way.
@Rago, I'm glad you brought up this issue
This might help to put all topics/replies into the right perspective.
I do realize that it is almost impossible to check te correctness, but let's hope everybody plays the game in a fair way.
@Rago, I'm glad you brought up this issue
motorcycling : sensation with a twist of the wrist
My two cents:
I have been reading the forums for some time, but I have been active for approx. half a year and I hope I am not the reason for the lowered level
Honestly, I do not see a serious problem in certain users attitude. If I have the feeling that someone is not interested in a serious discussion, I simply ignore him. If said person oversteps a certain line I would inform the Mods...
Being a mod in an Austrian aviation forum as well as at my university, I do not want a forum destroyed by certain people so I simply ignore them...
Regards, Bernhard
I have been reading the forums for some time, but I have been active for approx. half a year and I hope I am not the reason for the lowered level
Honestly, I do not see a serious problem in certain users attitude. If I have the feeling that someone is not interested in a serious discussion, I simply ignore him. If said person oversteps a certain line I would inform the Mods...
Being a mod in an Austrian aviation forum as well as at my university, I do not want a forum destroyed by certain people so I simply ignore them...
Regards, Bernhard
Thanks for the replies guys! ... and girls
To be honest, I didn't expect it, but this shows clearly that there was a tumor growing which could destroy this community, and that several people wanted to talk about it, but didn't dare? I hope that in future this kind of remarks will find an easier way to the Boss and Moderators so it won't escalate anymore
and I just want to say this last thing : my purpose wasn't to kick the butt of a specific member, but to start this discussion in the hope everybody will "evaluate his/her intentions" so we can try, all together, to get back to the good old days...
Cheers
To be honest, I didn't expect it, but this shows clearly that there was a tumor growing which could destroy this community, and that several people wanted to talk about it, but didn't dare? I hope that in future this kind of remarks will find an easier way to the Boss and Moderators so it won't escalate anymore
and I just want to say this last thing : my purpose wasn't to kick the butt of a specific member, but to start this discussion in the hope everybody will "evaluate his/her intentions" so we can try, all together, to get back to the good old days...
Cheers
Even though this isn't along term solution yet, the situation could already improve a lot if every member would ask himself the following questions before posting a message:
--> Does this post contribute in a constructive way to the discussion (quality iof quantity) .
--> Did I do some research before affirming things in the forum without knowing their truth ?
--> Let's push the SpellCheck button !
I don't want to say that there is no place for "wow great shots" replies. But if everybody tries to follow as much as possible those rules for latest aviation news and civil aviation forum, the quality will already improve.
Just my 2 cents
Chris
--> Does this post contribute in a constructive way to the discussion (quality iof quantity) .
--> Did I do some research before affirming things in the forum without knowing their truth ?
--> Let's push the SpellCheck button !
I don't want to say that there is no place for "wow great shots" replies. But if everybody tries to follow as much as possible those rules for latest aviation news and civil aviation forum, the quality will already improve.
Just my 2 cents
Chris
Goodevening,
1. More than 30 million pageviews in almost 4 years. A lot of sites can
only dream about those figures.
2. Coppermine picture gallery hosts very nice pictures and drawings of
very promising young and old photographers.
3. Luchtzak is for me sometimes the only source to find out if something
special is visiting our national airport (Spotters database).
4. Luchtzak is for me also a source where you can find articles about
specific subjects on aviation. Those subjects are given by members
who want to share this information.
5. Planespotting database is for me the source to retrieve most of the
registrations I don't have written down.
So far we could say ; what's the problem ?
Well...
I agree that some replies are useless and I agree that some replies in some topics are not contributing to an accepted discussionlevel on this forum.
I am not a hypocrite so I won't turn around the bushes ("rond de pot draaien" in 't Vloams): 2 things are really boring me to death :
- I do mind the "wow, great amazing plane"-style messages and the
numerous type faults. A quick look in a dictionary will at least give
you a better idea about spelling than the less accurate translation
stuffs you find on internet.
- I do mind the useless replies if somebody post excellent pictures
(sometimes I did it myself) but is it not possible in the future to avoid
those replies and to send a PM to the author instead of replying in the
forum ? I don't refer to correction on registrations which I find impor-
tant and which is of benefit to a lot of spotters.
Dear Mr. Robin Bamps,
Moderators,
I do hope that no phrases will be scrapped as I am sure my opinion is shared by a lot of other members and by sending this PM to the concerned members, it will not increase the discussion-level.
Greetz, Karl
1. More than 30 million pageviews in almost 4 years. A lot of sites can
only dream about those figures.
2. Coppermine picture gallery hosts very nice pictures and drawings of
very promising young and old photographers.
3. Luchtzak is for me sometimes the only source to find out if something
special is visiting our national airport (Spotters database).
4. Luchtzak is for me also a source where you can find articles about
specific subjects on aviation. Those subjects are given by members
who want to share this information.
5. Planespotting database is for me the source to retrieve most of the
registrations I don't have written down.
So far we could say ; what's the problem ?
Well...
I agree that some replies are useless and I agree that some replies in some topics are not contributing to an accepted discussionlevel on this forum.
I am not a hypocrite so I won't turn around the bushes ("rond de pot draaien" in 't Vloams): 2 things are really boring me to death :
- I do mind the "wow, great amazing plane"-style messages and the
numerous type faults. A quick look in a dictionary will at least give
you a better idea about spelling than the less accurate translation
stuffs you find on internet.
- I do mind the useless replies if somebody post excellent pictures
(sometimes I did it myself) but is it not possible in the future to avoid
those replies and to send a PM to the author instead of replying in the
forum ? I don't refer to correction on registrations which I find impor-
tant and which is of benefit to a lot of spotters.
Dear Mr. Robin Bamps,
=> Ever evaluated your behaviour and your style of messages and replies ?Due to a lot of unprofessional and unfounded topics, rumours and discussions :
=> I suggest you join this Belgian spotter on your future trips to airports. We will certainly miss your nice pictures on this forum but I am certain we will be able to check them on other sites.people from outside the community have the opinion that Luchtzak is a collection of "kleine kinderen, tooghangers en vrouwenzotten" (quote from a Belgian spotter) :
Moderators,
I do hope that no phrases will be scrapped as I am sure my opinion is shared by a lot of other members and by sending this PM to the concerned members, it will not increase the discussion-level.
Greetz, Karl