Some countries already have blacklists

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 21 Aug 2005, 07:29

Some countries already have blacklists.
If your country has such blacklist, please add the link here.
This is the UK blacklist

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 21 Aug 2005, 11:12

France doesn't have a black list, but 2 airlines are denied over France.

Réponse aux passagers s’interrogeant sur la sécurité des compagnies aériennes

Morceaux choisis:

Je dois prendre cette compagnie.
Est-elle sûre ?
...
Pour les compagnies étrangères, c’est l’autorité nationale qui garantit ce niveau de sécurité. A ce jour, la DGAC française, comme les autres autorités nationales, a pour sa part des informations très ponctuelles sur les compagnies étrangères. Ces informations sont obtenues lors des contrôles au sol effectués par ses contrôleurs dans le cadre du programme SAFA. Elle peut de plus avoir accès aux contrôles au sol effectués par les autres pays européens participant au programme SAFA. Il est donc difficile de se faire une opinion sur le niveau de sécurité d’une compagnie sur la seule base de ces quelques contrôles. En conséquence, il n’est pas possible de répondre aux demandes sur le niveau de sécurité de telle ou telle compagnie. La DGAC peut cependant indiquer que, pour les compagnies étrangères qui viennent en France, elle n’a pas d’élément en sa possession qui la conduirait à remettre en cause la venue de ces compagnies.

Existe-t-il une liste noire des compagnies ?

La France n’a pas établi de liste noire de compagnies étrangères. Suite à des contrôles répétés et restés sans action correctrice satisfaisante tant de la part des compagnies que de leur autorité nationale, deux compagnies ont été interdites en France (Air Koryo et Continental Wings Comores Airlines).

Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft Programme (SAFA)

The advantage of the EU black list would be to deny access to an unsafe airline not to one country but the whole EU, putting more pressure on them (see Onur Air story).

Regards

Seb.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 21 Aug 2005, 21:09

Greek charter plane banned from flying to France

Regards

Seb.

av8or_guy · Post by **av8or_guy** » 21 Aug 2005, 21:30

wasnt alexandair a new startup a little while ago?

n5528p · Post by **n5528p** » 22 Aug 2005, 09:13

Said lists will bring nothing - only strict checks of the actual condition of the planes will increase safety. Checking the paperwork only, does not make much sense.

Regards, Bernhard

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 22 Aug 2005, 09:30

n5528p wrote:Said lists will bring nothing - only strict checks of the actual condition of the planes will increase safety. Checking the paperwork only, does not make much sense. Regards, Bernhard

Indeed, Bernhard, I read today Italy did not report having made inspections for several years till now...
Physical checks seem not longer to be necessary.

(Remember the guy who came with his long hammer, and kicked to bogies of the trains? It gave always a good feeling, in the sleeper train, one felt more safe...

)

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 23 Aug 2005, 03:17

French push for airline blacklist
The number of French citizens victims of aviation disasters in the last 12 month is indeed impressive.
The article shows already some 300!

Bowlie · Post by **Bowlie** » 25 Aug 2005, 08:15

IATA opposes blacklists

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 25 Aug 2005, 11:13

Bowlie wrote:IATA opposes blacklists

Knowing what IATA, one could define it as a lobby?
International Air Transport Association is an international trade organization of airlines. The organisation has already been accused of behaving as a cartel.

I would prefer the advice of ICAO.
International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), an agency of the United Nations, develops the principles and techniques of international air navigation and fosters the planning and development of international air transport to ensure safe and orderly growth.

In other words, IATA shut up, please.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 25 Aug 2005, 11:25

The number of French citizens victims of aviation disasters in the last 12 month is indeed impressive.

Yep, Flash Airlines crash occured on January 3rd 04. 148 people on board, 135 french nationals out of the 137 passengers.

Really sad...

SN30952 wrote:Knowing what IATA, one could define it as a lobby?
...
I would prefer the advice of ICAO.

You were faster than me. Fully agree on that.

France will publish a "black list" next monday.

Regards

Seb.

Bowlie · Post by **Bowlie** » 25 Aug 2005, 22:15

Sorry, but how can you argue with:

"Efforts on safety should have a direct and positive impact. Blacklisting is punitive and does nothing to directly improve safety." It also stated that the industry's success at reducing fatal accidents "has been largely the result of global standards and international cooperation. There are no global standards for blacklisting."

Or is just the source of the comments that troubles you?

Do you actually think that a blacklist would have prevented a single death this month?

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 25 Aug 2005, 23:41

Hi Bowlie,

In few words, it means "let's us do our business. Everything is OK, we don't need that. Punishment is bad for business.

In other words, don't punish your kid for bad schoolwork beacause it will hurt his studies...

But the fact is it doesn't look safe.

Do you actually think that a blacklist would have prevented a single death this month?

Actually yes, but it depends also if the job is performed correctly. I mean every "bad" airline should be blacklisted if there is no improvement. BTW, ICAO has got their own unpublished blacklist. Only 3 countries have published their blacklist: USA, UK and Swiss.

Here is the total of victims during the last few years:

2005: 84 accidents, 35 with fatal injuries, 734 deads
According to an other source: 120 accidents (with at least 6 passengers), 840 deads
2004: 148 accidents, 51 with fatal injuries, 636 deads
According to an other source: 766 deads
2003: 176 accidents, 50 with fatal injuries, 1755 deads
2002: 177 accidents, 64 with fatal injuries, 1222 deads
2001: 171 accidents, 64 with fatal injuries, 1322 deads (counting 9-11 victims)

Regards

Seb.

Bowlie · Post by **Bowlie** » 26 Aug 2005, 20:38

If a government or the commission has safety doubts about an airline they should ban them, not put them on a list and happly post it onto the internet.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 26 Aug 2005, 20:45

@Bowlie:

Black list = Airline banned from the country

Regards

Seb.

Dude320 · Post by **Dude320** » 26 Aug 2005, 21:14

What is the purpose of a Black List ??

What it will improve even for the airlines/operators on that black list.

Would be better that some authority would follow them closely in order

to obtain an improvement in safety, training, maintenance, operations

issues.

I personally think that that would be better i.s.o. starting a "Heksenjacht".

What is your opinion ?

Bowlie · Post by **Bowlie** » 26 Aug 2005, 21:36

So if they are banned from the country, why have a list on the internet? See also here when an 'aviation expert' explains why it might be counter-productive.

Shouldn't the objective be to help sub-standard operators pull themselves up by the bootstraps? Publishing a 'name and shame' list after an airline has already been banned is not likely to have this result.

n5528p · Post by **n5528p** » 27 Aug 2005, 08:31

This whole listing and blue ribboning is getting more and more annoying to me. Sure it looks great in tv, as everyone will check his airline before booking - but it does not hit the point.

As mentioned above, certain lists exist with several if not all national authorities. The problem is that said authorities are not able to make up a data base where they can exchange information. The airline which crashed in Egypt was allowed to fly to France but not to Switzerland - they even speak the same language. The same with Onur Air this summer - the Dutch ban them, so does Germany, others decide not to.....

Under the bottomline: Like with security we see a good show in the media and nothing is done to solve the problem.

Regards, Bernhard

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 27 Aug 2005, 11:28

Aviation : les listes noires reflètent la préoccupation de l'OACI

L'OACI appelle à un resserrement de la sécurité aérienne

See also A&C edito: Carton rouge

SN30952 wrote:France has still Louis XV habits. That king killed people who hunted on his land around Versailles.

I learn something everyday

...

Regards

Seb.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 29 Aug 2005, 01:08

Here is the french black list.

5 airlines involved so far.

Regards

Seb.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 29 Aug 2005, 13:33

België: blacklist, Dutch :
http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/foaipen.pdf

Belgium: blacklist, French :
http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/foaipef.pdf

France : blacklist:
http://www.dgac.fr/html/oservice/Listei ... rdites.pdf

United Kingdom : blacklist:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 026674.pdf

the Netherlands : warning ("verscherpt toezicht")
http://www.ivw.nl/nl/actueel/verscherpt ... tstaan.jsp

Aviation24.be

Some countries already have blacklists

Some countries already have blacklists

Push for airline blacklist