EU Constitution, what will you vote

A318 · Post by **A318** » 26 Apr 2005, 22:08

All around Europe people getting ready to vote in favour or against the European Constitution.
I am very curious what we all think about it here.
For several reasons I will vote NO.
What about you?

http://www.europeannocampaign.com

http://www.vote-no.com

Humberside · Post by **Humberside** » 26 Apr 2005, 22:29

I say Vote No. I live in the UK and in my opinion the EU just creates stupid rules. There is one about when you can alter train timetables. In the UK we had a good system of June and September. Now it is December and June. This is bad because you have to get use to new train times just before Christmas and alterations still have to be made in September when summer only trains end

Post by **sn26567** » 27 Apr 2005, 09:10

We Belgians do not vote. And it is very well like that. Leave it to the parliament to decide: they know what it is about.

In France and in The Netherlands, most people who will vote NO do not even know what they are voting about. Their vote is a vote against their government, and they do not realise that by doing so,
1) they will not push their government out
2) they are slowing down the European construction

A NO vote is totally irresponsible.

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 27 Apr 2005, 11:21

Humberside - you are talking sense my friend

Although I adore Brussels as a city, I hate the politics it stands for.

Here in Britain we have had our laws which have served us well for many years eroded and destroyed by the French and Germans.

Our fishing and farming industries have been destroyed owing to European legislation, the French and Spanish have more fishing rights in UK waters than UK fisherman do, thanks to the EU.

The British farming industry was almost destroyed thanks to the French and the EU (plenty of French herds were riddled with BSE but there was no ban on their beef was there?)

And personally, I don't see why my life should be governed by people who do not even speak my language

The best thing for Britiain to do with regard to the EU is to leave it, and the sooner the better.

A318 · Post by **A318** » 27 Apr 2005, 11:29

sn26567 wrote:Leave it to the parliament to decide: they know what it is about.

A NO vote is totally irresponsible.

That is your opinion but we dutch people think totally different.
Some dutch thoughts:
The majority is going to vote against it since we don't want to be ruled by the big countries like France and Germany.
We have our own rules and laws and don't want to be told what we have to do.
Holland is the biggest financial contributor at this moment for the EU and is receiving the smallest amount of money back.
France is receiving huge amounts for their agricultural needs and they are contributing almost nothing, this is a completely wrong politic.
We don't want Turkey to be EU members, even our government says we should let them because they are a perfect buffer between the west and the Islamitic countries!
If that is there main reason then please leave them our of the EU and then I not even talk about their Cyprus counter part.
So Andre, don't say that we don't know where we talk about because we do, we are just not pro EU.
This counts also for the French and British by the way.
A NO vote is very responsible since we try to save our country from the big mistakes our government is going to make!

Erwin

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 27 Apr 2005, 12:29

Since I turned 18 in February I also can vote against this constitution, but it is not only a vote against the constitution, but against the whole EU thing. Those :censored: EU-politicians never asked or listened to the people when deciding things like that East-European countries could join the EU, and they tried to pull it of with Turkey also.
Cooperation between the European countries is ok, but I do not want something like a United States of Europe. All the European countries should govern themselves, because they are so different and all have their different approaches to solve all the different problems.

I live in the UK and in my opinion the EU just creates stupid rules.

And apart from what I wrote above, this is just another reason for me being against the EU. They are just imposing rules without the people in Europe can influence it in any way, this is like in a dictatorship. A national government could lose the elections when they are doing bad, but in the EU they are doing bad all the time and we as Europeans can't do anything about it.

It reminds me of the days of Communism, when all the East-European countries had to follow what Moscow said, not matter what.
Here in Holland the highways are full of traffic jams every day, but we can't build more roads because the EU environment rules are forbidding that. For god sake, why do we here in Holland even care about that. The traffic jams cost our economy billions, but we still follow this stupid EU rules (there where countries like France and Germany break them all the time, which is a good thing to do, because most of the EU-rules are complete nonsense). :censored:

A NO vote is very responsible since we try to save our country from the big mistakes our government is going to make!

, you are so right, but unfortunately in this land every political party seems to favor the EU.

I wish Holland would do it like Denmark, they only are going with the EU when that is in their interest, and not when they are "screwed" by the EU.

Voting in favor of the EU constitution will only give those morons in Brussel more power to implement their stupid policies on us, so please rethink before you make the wrong decision.

Before I forget to add this, I do not even want to imagine what this whole EU nonsense is costing us, as taxpayers. Just think about it, all the Civil servants, the EU politicians (who are earning outrageous salaries and benefits), the move of them every Friday and most of all, the stupid rules they invent and that are blocking the national economies.

The EU? No thanks! :dammit: :pukey:

Post by **sn26567** » 27 Apr 2005, 12:48

Comet wrote:I don't see why my life should be governed by people who do not even speak my language.

I can't believe that! In ALL meetings of the EU I went to (and I can speak of experience; who else does?), either the ONLY language spoken was English (if no translation was available), or the majority of people spoke English (even when translation was available).

No country can live on its own in the modern world. You want to re-introduce customs, trade barriers, tariffs, separate currencies? That's world in reverse! Go ahead, but without me!

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 27 Apr 2005, 12:51

What a coincidence, I just walked down to look in the mailbox, and guess what I found there...

A personal card ("oproepingskaart") so I can go and vote on the EU-constitution....

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 27 Apr 2005, 15:12

Yes I would introduce separate currencies. Why should the British people be bullied into handing all financial and monetary control over to a bank in Frankfurt? Our economy should be controlled from London, not Germany. Taxes should be set by the British, not the French and Germans. British waters should be for the British fishing fleet, not the French and Spanish. Why should we be told that all children in schools must learn French (why French for :censored: sake) as a second language? British shipyards have laid off most of their workers, and now we see substandard rubbish built in France and Germany being used by so-called British operators instead of proper, home-built ships.

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » 27 Apr 2005, 15:53

I would vote yes, if I could vote... It's the way of the future!
I'm not saying the EU is perfect, but the constitution is a way to reform it, and make it better and more efficient, isn't it?

I would very much like to see some facts about the claims people make here... Holland the biggest contributor? British fishermen can't fish in their own waters? I'm thinking most of these statements are grossly exgagerated...

A318 · Post by **A318** » 27 Apr 2005, 17:17

Buzz, it's time to inform yourself about the EU constitution and all troubles it can cause, a little quote:

the Netherlands – currently the nation which makes the largest net per capita contribution to the EU – has now managed to retain the veto system in this area, albeit for the time being only.

Take some time to read the whole article:
http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/currentaffair ... w=Standard

Just in case you still don't believe us, do a search on google about the EU constitution pro's and contra's.

Oh yeah, just to give an idea where the money is going to:

The following amount of 2.720.000,00 EUR is foreseen for financing projects in Bulgaria, Romania and the 8 Central and Eastern European countries which joined the European Union in 2004.
For co-operation with the Russian Federation (Saint-Peterburg) and Croatia a budget of 200,000.00 EUR has been made available.
This first amount has been assigned to the respective countries in the following manner: Bulgaria: 725,000.00 EUR; Romania: 960,000.00 EUR. For the new European member states the amount was assigned according to objective criteria: Estonia: 100,000.00 EUR; Hungary: 125,000.00 EUR; Latvia: 110,000.00 EUR; Lithuania: 115,000.00 EUR; Poland: 265,000.00 EUR; Slovenia: 75,000.00 EUR; Slovakia: 120,000.00 EUR; and the Czech republic: 125,000.00 EUR. As was the case in the past Flemish promoters can submit project proposals for co-operation with these countries. These guidelines are meant to help promoters in drawing up a project proposal. Further information can be obtained from the Flemish administration of Foreign Affairs.
Considering the limited budget for the Russian Federation (St-Peterburg) and Croatia, only a small number of pilot projects will be financed. The number of subsidizable projects will also be limited for the new member states.

Erwin

Post by **sn26567** » 27 Apr 2005, 17:30

Comet wrote:Yes I would introduce separate currencies.

Do you really like changing currencies every time you cross a border? Not me. I hate enough being compelled to exchange my EUR against GBP every time (=every month) I go to Manchester, giving a fat commission to the banks.

Comet wrote:Why should the British people be bullied into handing all financial and monetary control over to a bank in Frankfurt?

It is not a bank in Germany, it is the European Central Bank, controlled, not by Germany, but by the Central Banks of every Member State. It happens to be located in Franfurt, but it could have been in London if the UK was part of the Euro. The Bank of England would have its say in the monetary policy of Europe if the UK joined the Euro.

Comet wrote:Our economy should be controlled from London, not Germany. Taxes should be set by the British, not the French and Germans.

Well, this is actually the case for most economic decisions. But when the UK goes on its own (by not being member of the Euro), it is not particularly profitabkle for its citizens who have to pay an interest rate of 5% instead of 2.5% in the Euro zone!

Comet wrote:Why should we be told that all children in schools must learn French (why French for :censored: sake) as a second language? .

Because the more languages you know, the more chances you have to be hired by an employer. Think of it, Louise. You should spend some of your free time to learn a foreign language. French, Spanish, German, it does not matter, but it will increase your value on the job market.

Comet wrote:British shipyards have laid off most of their workers, and now we see substandard rubbish built in France and Germany being used by so-called British operators instead of proper, home-built ships.

Can you prove this? The Herald of Free Enterprise that capsized near Zeebrugge a few years ago was built in the Uk...

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 27 Apr 2005, 18:36

Buzz wrote:I would vote yes, if I could vote... It's the way of the future!
I'm not saying the EU is perfect, but the constitution is a way to reform it, and make it better and more efficient, isn't it?

The constitution reforms the EU in a way that will give the morons in Brussel (the EU-politicians, not the people that live there) more and more power, and the influence of the national governments will dwindle. Nice thing, that the EU can overrule your national goverment anytime, especially when you are in a little country that has virtually no power in the EU.

Even worse, France and Germany are virtually running the EU alone, without regard to other countries.

No country can live on its own in the modern world. You want to re-introduce customs, trade barriers, tariffs, and separate currencies? That's world in reverse! Go ahead, but without me!

No, I agree with you on those points. But hold on a minute, the crappy constitution will transfer power from the national governments to the EU. And that I oppose very strong, it's ok to work together thoroughly, but I think each country should stay independent. The EU constitution will only give those morons in Brussel more power to implement their stupid policies on us; it is not about cooperating within the EU.
Let's say that to decrease pollution they just could impose a tax on all tickets sold within Europe, without having to take justifications. And they are making rules like crazy which are blocking our economic growth. (the UK and Denmark, who did not join the Euro zone, are doing a better job then the rest of the EU countries).

To cover this in short, cooperating thoroughly (on the economic side) is fine with me, but one EU-government that is deciding policies that are implemented (on us) are pissing me off.

Sabena_690 · Post by **Sabena_690** » 27 Apr 2005, 18:37

A lot of opinions about the EU are either based on wrong (biased) information, or based on 'feelings', and not on facts.

Are there pro's and con's to Europe? Of course, but this is about the CONSTITUTION.

The constitution seems to be used these days as a tool to express ones disgust against a certain government, or about certain measures, but not to express disgust about the constitution itself.

Leaving my opinion aside, I'd just like to comment on a few points made in this thread.

I say Vote No. I live in the UK and in my opinion the EU just creates stupid rules. There is one about when you can alter train timetables. In the UK we had a good system of June and September. Now it is December and June. This is bad because you have to get use to new train times just before Christmas and alterations still have to be made in September when summer only trains end

Are you serious that train schedules is an argument to be against the Constitution? I'd check again what the constitution is about, before making such statements.

In France and in The Netherlands, most people who will vote NO do not even know what they are voting about.

Exactly. You only have to look as far as this thread to see this.

The British farming industry was almost destroyed thanks to the French and the EU (plenty of French herds were riddled with BSE but there was no ban on their beef was there?)

What the hell does a disease have to do with the European Constitution? The same would have happened even without a 'Europe'.

The majority is going to vote against it since we don't want to be ruled by the big countries like France and Germany.

You are and stay ruled by the government you elect.

Cooperation between the European countries is ok, but I do not want something like a United States of Europe. All the European countries should govern themselves, because they are so different and all have their different approaches to solve all the different problems.

That's an argument I can understand. I also partially follow this statement, as long as it is about local affairs. Don't underestimate the importance of the EU in things like economical affairs.

They are just imposing rules without the people in Europe can influence it in any way, this is like in a dictatorship.

No influence it in any way? And who do you think I voted for 10 months ago? Exactly, for those who I wanted to see as 'representatives' of Belgium in the EU.

Here in Holland the highways are full of traffic jams every day, but we can't build more roads because the EU environment rules are forbidding that.

Ever considered that this may be due to the fact that socialism and environtalism is very popular in The Netherlands? I can't believe that the EU prohibits you to build more roads.

I don't see why my life should be governed by people who do not even speak my language.

Sorry Comet, but I think you don't really know what you are talking about. This also counts for most if not all of your so called 'arguments'.

Yes I would introduce separate currencies.

Ever had some economics? You should have to know that your export is very sensitive for different currencies. I take the example of Belgium: Belgium is very dependent of its export. Thanks to the EUR, we have drastically reduced our risk for currency changes. This also applies to the UK.

About your "argument" about "monetary and financial power in Frankfurt": you clearly don't know how the European Central Bank works. Check André his reply, and do some research, as you are making a fool of yourself with statements like this.

British waters should be for the British fishing fleet, not the French and Spanish.

Back to the times of protectionism? And I thought that I had seen the most stupid argument already.

You'd better make your economy more competitive, instead of re-introducing protectionism.

Just in case you still don't believe us, do a search on google about the EU constitution pro's and contra's.

Oh yeah, just to give an idea where the money is going to:

The internet is full of articles pro the EU Constitution, and anti the EU Constitution. I prefer more credible ways to get my information instead of just quoting whatever suits you best.

Why should we be told that all children in schools must learn French (why French for sake) as a second language?

Maybe because French is a very important language in the world? Instead of pretending that everyone should have to speak English, you'd better learn some languages yourself.

A lot of real arguments can be given in this pro- and anti-discussion. It's amazing to see what arguments people actually have to vote against this constitution. It's your right to vote against it, but at least do it with real arguments.

Sabena_690 · Post by **Sabena_690** » 27 Apr 2005, 18:43

Let's say that to decrease pollution they just could impose a tax on all tickets sold within Europe, without having to take justifications. And they are making rules like crazy which are blocking our economic growth. (the UK and Denmark, who did not join the Euro zone, are doing a better job then the rest of the EU countries).

In case you are talking about environtalism: yes, we will have to work together, and work HARD together.

The Earth will not be able to sustain the growth of the economy in China, if they will start to consume like the US. China is currently using a lot of the world's resources for their booming economy, but have not yet taken the measures we have taken to reduce pollution.

The Kyoto-protocol is extremely important for the future generation of people on this planet, and if we keep on delaying drastic measures (for which we need the EU), I'm afraid for the worst.

It's already bad enough that a huge polluter as the US doesn't seem to be interested in drastic measures. A replacement for Dubya will be needed in respect to the environment I'm afraid.

x-prise · Post by **x-prise** » 27 Apr 2005, 19:01

if i was a european id vote no because i think the people and the governement of the country should have final control then snobby polititians from another country because a bigger population in that country voted yes its like now so the germans and the french will install a dictatorship in the EU i much like the US system leaving each country to its own devices but still keeping a minumum on all laws between them...
EU i think has a totally incorrect phillosphy on how to maintain the Union because in my theory i believe it should have common laws but none that gives them a complete advantage.

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 27 Apr 2005, 19:33

Sabena_690 wrote:
Here in Holland the highways are full of traffic jams every day, but we can't build more roads because the EU environment rules are forbidding that.
Ever considered that this may be due to the fact that socialism and environtalism is very popular in The Netherlands? I can't believe that the EU prohibits you to build more roads.

That also is a reason, but some major construction work was stopped, or didn't even start, because of EU-regulations. There was some sort of weird connection with the Dutch air quality which didn't was as good as the EU regulations said that it should be. And that is why construction work was halted.

About the constitution, someone on another forum put it very well. "It is the formal treaty for all the undemocratic decisions made by the EU, and all the undemocratic decisions that in the future will be made."

Btw, I just found another stupid EU rule. School need to take measures against kids because they are to loud and are exceeding the EU rules.......

For God sake, what for nonsense is this?
Link, only in Dutch.
EU politicians are throwing millions out of the window, and do not want to change that.
Again, link only in Dutch

On the same site there is this interesting topic, unfortunately only in Dutch again. But keep your eyes out for the comments of "Keroko", he puts it very well why the shift of power from our national goverment to the EU goverment will form a massive problem.

Humberside · Post by **Humberside** » 27 Apr 2005, 22:06

Sabena_690 wrote:Are you serious that train schedules is an argument to be against the Constitution? I'd check again what the constitution is about, before making such statements.

The statement was about one example of a stupid EU Rule. The constitution will make it easier for more stupid rules to be passed.

The constitution also puts the independence of the UK at risk. We are giving more and more of our powers away. So much for an 'Economic Community'

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 27 Apr 2005, 23:13

I just watched "Stern TV", and part of the program was about the ridiculous high amount of benefits and expense-compensations that all the EU-parliament members receive. On a side note, who have been in charge of deciding about the benefits and compensations? Right, the EU parliament members themselves.

This week the European Parliament voted about the publication of what compensations they receive. Of course, the European Parliament voted against, because it would outrage the people in Europe. Especially in this time everybody needs to make ends meet, but the members of the European Parliament members are receiving huge amounts of (ridiculous) benefits, privileges and compensations.
The constitution would allow those people even more power to decide about their own compensations and benefits. Already it has been proven that they are doing shoddy practices with this, and who would seriously consider to give those dubious individuals even more power (i.e., that will happen with the European constitution).

Unfortunately all this can only be proven in German, here.
(pdf file shows all the different benefits i.e.)

When reading all the ridiculous benefits, privileges and benefits, keep that in mind the next time you need to pay taxes, you now know where (part) of them will end up. Also think about the fact that a EU-constitution would allow the same people to operate more independent (in their personal benefit).

A318 · Post by **A318** » 28 Apr 2005, 13:00

Sabena_690 wrote: The Kyoto-protocol is extremely important for the future generation of people on this planet, and if we keep on delaying drastic measures (for which we need the EU), I'm afraid for the worst.

It's already bad enough that a huge polluter as the US doesn't seem to be interested in drastic measures. A replacement for Dubya will be needed in respect to the environment I'm afraid.

There is Mr. Anti US again (Australia didn't sign also my friend), for your information (once again) US environmental laws are as good as the Kyoto agreement!
Even left environmental groups agree that the Kyoto agreement is an empty agreement, it will not make any difference at all, let me quote:

'The protocol is unlikely to make any difference. It gives the false impression that a breakthrough has been achieved but there are too many loopholes,' says Gurmit Singh, regional co-ordinator of Climate Action Network South-East Asia, an organisation of public interest groups working on the climate issue.

Full Article: http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/kyt-cn.htm

But to go back on topic (since we discussed Kyoto too much already) I don't see why French should be important for us.
English is a world language followed by Spanish, this is a well known fact but French....no way.
Sure if you do bussines with France or Africa it is handy when you speak the language, same with German, but those languages are not important enough that they will be a 'must known' language.

You say you are happy with the Euro in Belgium since it is a more stabel valuta, exactly for Belgium it is better since the Belgium Franc was going up and down like a humble wave in the ocean.
But for Holland (counts also for Germany and the UK) this Euro became a disaster!
The gulden (guilder) we had, was one of the strongest valuta in the world and gave us much more security then we have now with the Euro.
We never got the chance to vote for this Euro, they just decided for us.

That is exactly what is going on now, we hear the same story as when they introduced the Euro, it is good for us, for the country, the future etc.
But we heard that story already and see the negative results of it daily, currently 63% of the dutch will vote no because we know where we stand.
I do respect other opinions but don't say because I vote no that I am not responsible or don't know where I talk about.
Current poll (in dutch) http://www.elsevier.nl/nieuws/europese_ ... index.html

Erwin

Aviation24.be

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