Martinair decides to Change Stance in AF-KLM Group

KLMCityhopper · Post by **KLMCityhopper** » 09 Apr 2005, 15:00

As many know, Martinair was always very negative about the merger of KLM and Air France. Martinair was scared Air France would suck out all of the Martinair operations, and merge it with KLM. Martinair is only partly owned by KLM. The other half is of Nedlloyd, a container company. Martinair was so negative, that it even wrote messages, like "the only REAL Dutch airline" In a Dutch news paper thought, MArtinair has now stateed tyhat it would like to fly charter flights for both Air France and KLM, yet Air France has already rejected the offer, due to the attitude. KLM will now try to persuade Air France. MArtinair will try to become the charter airline of the group, flying form the Paris, and Amsterdam hubs, becoming a real international airline.
Good Luck!

KLMCityhopper · Post by **KLMCityhopper** » 09 Apr 2005, 15:19

I forgot to mention that Martinair might acuire additional A320 aircraft, and will maybe even lease A330 equipment, since it will phase out 767 aircraft soon

Flying_Dutchman · Post by **Flying_Dutchman** » 09 Apr 2005, 15:40

Last week I've read in the newspaper that AF and Martinair has negociated and if Martinair want to co-operate with AF, Martinair has to pull out from destinations that already been served by AF, like Havanna in Cuba.

Post by **sn26567** » 09 Apr 2005, 15:46

Paris rules!

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 09 Apr 2005, 16:49

Flying_Dutchman wrote:Last week I've read in the newspaper that AF and Martinair has negociated and if Martinair want to co-operate with AF, Martinair has to pull out from destinations that already been served by AF, like Havanna in Cuba.

The first signs of Air France's true intentions start to show. They will slowly start to kill of all the serious competition in the Dutch market and will pull the Dutch market towards Paris (and Air France). :pukey:

And when the contracts/agreements (that go until 2007 I think) that KLM has made with Air France run out, KLM will (or could) be next. It will end up with Air France ruling the Dutch market, maybe KLM will serve Air France as a feeder, after all profitable routes have been taken over by Air France.

Martinair should stay Dutch, and with the proper reorganizing and rebranding it could be the leading Dutch carrier in the future (that is when Air France would kill of KLM).

Flying_Dutchman · Post by **Flying_Dutchman** » 09 Apr 2005, 17:16

B744skipper wrote:
Flying_Dutchman wrote:Last week I've read in the newspaper that AF and Martinair has negociated and if Martinair want to co-operate with AF, Martinair has to pull out from destinations that already been served by AF, like Havanna in Cuba.
The first signs of Air France's true intentions start to show. They will slowly start to kill of all the serious competition in the Dutch market and will pull the Dutch market towards Paris (and Air France). :pukey:

And when the contracts/agreements (that go until 2007 I think) that KLM has made with Air France run out, KLM will (or could) be next. It will end up with Air France ruling the Dutch market, maybe KLM will serve Air France as a feeder, after all profitable routes have been taken over by Air France.

Martinair should stay Dutch, and with the proper reorganizing and rebranding it could be the leading Dutch carrier in the future (that is when Air France would kill of KLM).

Martinair has also already said that they won't pull out any destination. AF can forget that.

Sabena_690 · Post by **Sabena_690** » 09 Apr 2005, 17:32

B744skipper: can you please give the KL takeover some time before you start with those killing-scenarios?

If I have to believe all the bullsh*t I've heard till now, all from Dutch people who don't want to lose their 'pride', KL would have dissapeared already.

Where would KL be WITHOUT a partner within for example 10 years?

Till now, I've only seen positive aspects of the merger. Unless you can show me examples of where AF are 'killing' KL?

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 09 Apr 2005, 19:26

Sabena_690 wrote: Where would KL be WITHOUT a partner within for example 10 years?

High in the sky, flying Boeing aircraft under their own name and brand.

But without the BS, I do not say it was a bad thing for KLM to have a partner, but I don't think that Air France was the perfect one. I would have rather see them corporate with British Airways, SAS or Lufthansa (or other airlines).
Why no Air France? Because I do not trust French business practices and politics. They always seem to have a hidden agenda, and tend to want always the most power in (the EU, Airbus, you name it).

And I wonder why KLM had to merge (to which airline doesn't matter). They could have started an intensive corporation like they did with Northwest, or even more extensive like streamlining the fleets with partner airlines, and share orders, passengers, cargo and maintenance.
Without a merger KLM still would be in charge of themselves, and when problems with the partner emerge, it is a lot more easier to abandon ship then it is when KLM is merged to another airline.

Sabena_690 wrote:Till now, I've only seen positive aspects of the merger. Unless you can show me examples of where AF are 'killing' KL?

And when the contracts/agreements (that go until 2007 I think) that KLM has made with Air France run out, KLM will (or could) be next.

That's the hidden agenda I talked about above, when those agreements run out Air France could kill KLM, or at least the pull the profitable parts to Paris. Those agreements where only made to ease the Dutch government, KLM employees and KLM management, and of course the shareholders of KLM.

Is the scenario I described inevitable? No, it isn't. But it is merely my view, and it a scenario which "we" (more the KLM-management then we Luchtzakkers

) need to be aware of. Better be safe then sorry.
I think this is not some scared fantasy, but it is a very real scenario. Underestimation of the counter-part has often been the origin of major problems (this applies to almost everything like: war, politics, business and so on).

website-info · Post by **website-info** » 09 Apr 2005, 19:48

Hi All,

the 'killing' has already started ! Merkat and I are heading to the US next week, travelling on KLM Flying Dutchman award tickets. I had a call from KLM to say the tickets cannot be printed in BRU beacuse the ticket printer is broken. When I called KLM to see if I can get them someplace else the truth came out, AF has/is taking over KLM airport ticket desks outside of the Netherlands and AF are REFUSING to print 'free' tickets ............

just my €0.02 worth and from a non-dutch person as well,

On a brighter note, a message from Flying Dutchman has now offered me life Platinum membership in exchange of my yearly Flying Dutchman Gold card !!!. Not all bad things as all they have done is align this with the AF scheme (whatever it's called)

T

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 10 Apr 2005, 09:25

Since we are talking now about AF-KLM, I think it's time to tell it:

Finance Minister Gerrit Zalm said Thursday (APR 7th) the Dutch state had reduced its stake in Air France-KLM from 14.1 percent to 6 percent

B744skipper wrote:And I wonder why KLM had to merge

Coz the debt ratio of KL was growing and growing. From a financial point of view, it was the best thing to do (see what happens finally to Swiss). KL was able to outlive 10 years, but after?
From the "hearth/pride" point of view, I understand you perfectly. I just hope that AF will respect the KL brand, the KL policies, and of course, the KL employees!

Regards

Seb.

A318 · Post by **A318** » 13 Apr 2005, 14:21

KL was handed over to the enemy, almost everybody agreed about that in Holland and inside the KLM offices.
But we were talking about Martinair and their future in the KLM group. Transavia is already in negotiation with AF to fly low cost in/out of France since AF doesn't have a low cost arm.
Slowly they want to take it all and now Martinair wants to go by themselves, I should say NO GO!
A lot of travellers are trying to fly as much as possible with Martinair because of their service, their own indentity and their destinations. Martinair should better expand on it's own and should try to get out of the KL/AF hands for their own good and future.
Martinair is stable, reliable and a trusted company by the dutch and Belgium passenger and should stay like that.
May I remind you for example that the only part of the KLM group that never had red figures in the last 22 years is Transavia.
Martinair should better try to get undepended with Transavia and build their own network.
Ofcourse is Martinair very strong in the Cargo industry with their own Martinair Cargo and their partly ownership in Tampa Cargo.

Greetz,

Erwin

BRU-CPH · Post by **BRU-CPH** » 13 Apr 2005, 16:16

what is the current link between Martinair and Transavia?

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 13 Apr 2005, 17:15

BRU-CPH wrote:what is the current link between Martinair and Transavia?

KLM (or should I say AF-KLM?) owns 100% of Transavia.
KLM owns 50% of martinair.

AFAIK, there is no link between transavia and Martinair.

Regards

Seb.

Badabing · Post by **Badabing** » 13 Apr 2005, 17:46

Well, there's just been a press release by Thomas Cook that confirms they have a contract till 2008 that makes Martinair the operator for their long-haul flights out of Brussels. Operation with B767 A/C starts on 1 May.

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 13 Apr 2005, 21:04

A318 wrote:A lot of travellers are trying to fly as much as possible with Martinair because of their service, their own indentity and their destinations. Martinair should better expand on it's own and should try to get out of the KL/AF hands for their own good and future.
Martinair is stable, reliable and a trusted company by the dutch and Belgium passenger and should stay like that.

I totally agree with that. Martinair could be a leading carrier in the Dutch (and Belgium?) market in the future. At least in the (leisure) niche they operate in. And of course the freighter services, which makes huge profits and compensates for the losses made in the charter sector. I don't know for sure if the charter sector makes losses, but it isn't doing that great either. If Martinair is smart they should use their good name, and with the money that the freighter ops make they should reorganize their charter/leisure service. Maybe they could order the B787 in the future....

I always wondered why they didn't enter the Belgian market, after the collapse of Sabena, Citybird and Sobelair. The leisure market lay open for them....could have made money out of the lack of real competitors back then...

Martinair should cut themselves loose and get independent, they have their niche in which they can make good amounts of money. No need for them to be in the AF-KLM company. Maybe in the future their are other markets in which they can expand, maybe even in competion with KLM.

V-Bird · Post by **V-Bird** » 14 Apr 2005, 00:18

sn26567 wrote:Paris rules!

french words...........