Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[OO-ITR]

OO-SSB started flying today.

Little suggestion. Maybe we can change the title and put 'replacement of Avro,s' only since all Boeings have been fased out

[Bralo20]

it's unlikely that SN will paint another aircraft into a *A livery . ..

It's unlikely but it's definately cheaper to paint for a plane that's going to fased out in the foreseen future.

[sn26567]

Little suggestion. Maybe we can change the title and put 'replacement of Avro,s' only since all Boeings have been phased out

The topic started when Boeings were still flying, hence, for historical reasons and in order to facilitate research through search engines, we'll keep the title unchanged.

[sn26567]

When Sabena went belly up, it had 15 A319s, 6 A320s and 3 A321s. The B737s had almost disappeared (they only came back in SN's fleet through the merger with VEX and have now completely been withdrawn). And there was an impressive fleet of some 33 Avro RJs.

Brussels Airlines has now a short-medium haul fleet of 14 A319s (only one less than Sabena), 5 A320s (also one less than Sabena), but no A321. Plus a much reduced number of Avro RJs (14), some of which have earlier been replaced by 5 Q400s.

Wouldn't it be time to look after some A321s? There are certainly routes that can justify such a plane: TLV, AGP, MAD, BCN, TXL, ... And that would give a greater flexibility to the fleet.

[Air Key West]

A321s ? Yes and no. I'm not sure. Because of the crisis in Spain (loss of purchasing power through austerity measures, 50 % unemployment among yound people), Spaniards have hardly any money left to travel abroad. So, an A321 to BCN or MAD doesn't seem a good idea, as b.air would mainly have to count on Belgian (and a few connecting pax) to fill the planes.
To AGP (Malaga), it could be an option.
As to TLV and perhaps also Moscow, an A321 could perhaps be filled adequately. Should b.air acquire A321s and use them on "long" medium-haul flights, they should seriously consider to introduce a dedicated business class (2x2 + more comfortable seats and a more generous seat pitch than the current new standard).
I know this is not the trend in Europe, but compare with Aeroflot and El Al on the chart below :
http://www.seatguru.com/charts/shorthau ... _class.php

[Flanker2]

I like the idea of taking a few A321's to operate the mid-hauls with a decent 2-2 C class.
It would also be an opportunity to test the business product on shorter routes to see if it's going to stimulate demand for the business class, so that SN can position itself as a premium product.

Currently SN has almost no C pax, but which donkeys wants to pay 3 times higher fares for a seat on the hard NEK benches, with same seat width and seat pitch as in the economy class for a 1 hour flight? Certainly not people who have money.

People with money and company executives care a lot about value for money and that's just not there.

If SN rethinks its current strategy of being a lo-co that charges private jet fares, and actually offer an exclusive lounge at BRU (it has to be WOW), a decent business class.

[RoMax]

I like the idea of taking a few A321's to operate the mid-hauls with a decent 2-2 C class.
It would also be an opportunity to test the business product on shorter routes to see if it's going to stimulate demand for the business class, so that SN can position itself as a premium product.

Yes that could work, A321's on longer routes like TLV and DME with a better C class. But do LX, LH or OS have such kind of configurations? Otherwise I don't see it happening for SN either.

Currently SN has almost no C pax, but who wants to pay 3 times higher fares for a seat on the hard NEK benches, with same seat width and seat pitch as in the economy class? Certainly not people who have money.
People with money and company executives care a lot about value for money and that's just not there.

Who wants to pay a fortune to travel in C class in Europe (1-2 hour flights) anyway? For sure not the people that have to travel for work (and where the company pays for the tickets), neither most rich people. Yes there may be some extra people with a lot of money on SN's flights, so maybe they'll go from 0-3 to 1-4 C pax per flight (on average), but that's hardly worth the investment on the current A319/A320 fleet.
Dedicated C class seats don't have a future in Europe anymore, only on the medium haul routes like North-Africa, Israel and surroundings, Russia.

[CTBke]

Nor LX nor OS and LH have special seats on their A321 it's just the same system as on 319 and 320 and for those few C-class pax travelling to TLV and DME although it would make it more attractive if you a real business class product on your planes ... but I don't see SN starting with A321 planes as they can only use it for TLV (becuase this flight is most of the time full house)

[RoMax]

but I don't see SN starting with A321 planes as they can only use it for TLV (becuase this flight is most of the time full house)

Can't SN upgrade the frequency to TLV, or are they limited in the bilateral agreement? Btw, wasn't there an openskies agreement between EU and Israel on the way recently? That should make things easier, at least if they want to upgrade at all.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Concerning tlv, if so ( open up skies. ) guess FR and U2 will start operations to TLV..
Besides El Al and JAF, ...
Guess this route will be a battleplace so not worth to add an A321...

CXB

[CTBke]

Easyjet already flies to TLV from GVA, BSL, LTN and MAN

[OO-ITR]

OO-VEN left for BUD yesterday and OO-MJE a week ago

http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.m ... av4&page=2

[brusselsairlinesfan]

I think the replacement is done already, except for the Avros RJ100 (btw, why still 1 RJ85 left?).
No significant order to expect right now...
I think the RJ100 will stay a little bit more.

[Pocahontas]

Any update on this subject? C-Series for Bru Air or not?

[RoMax]

Any update on this subject? C-Series for Bru Air or not?

Earlier this year a LH manager pointed at a certain tentative narrowbody replacement decision for SN in the 3rd quarter of this year (I mentionned it somewhere on this forum, but I'm not sure where, it was tweeted by an American aviation journalist). I don't think we'll hear anything from SN itself until there's a firm decision.

[convair]

I realize LH and SN networks and operations are quite different and , hence, s/h fleet requirements are different too. However, some degree of "homogenization" might be financially interesting for the buyers. If the trend at LH gives any indication for SN's future choice, Embraer seems to have gained some ground in recent years.
Also turboprops don't seem to have raised LH's enthousiasm.

[Flanker2]

I think that Embraer are marvelous aircraft and are very popular with passengers compared to other aircraft.

However, they're like the Concorde. I don't know of a single airline that has a successful business plan centered around any ERJ or E-Jets. In my opinion, given its high lease cost and relatively heavy airframe, they will not be competitive 5 years from now, compared to GTF powered new RJ's. Buying Ejets now will be the same story as with the Avro's all over again. If there is an Embraer aircraft that can help SN, it's the Brasilia.

Flybe is in a steady decline since they've moved away from a Q400-only operation towards E-jets. I don't think that they will survive very long after they have all those E175's added to their fleet.

The re-engined E-Jets will be better aircraft. It may be in SN's interest to stretch the RJ100's until they can get the newest and the best, given that fuel prices are showing a downward trend. I think that Mitsubishi still has a few spots for the first MRJ's.

The CS100 is not the right aircraft for SN, it will not help SN at all. Too big, too heavy, expensive.
I don't think that it's the right aircraft for LX either. LX can afford this mistake, SN can't.

[RTM]

If there is an Embraer aircraft that can help SN, it's the Brasilia.

Yeah... Very consistand you are... In one topic you give SN a hard time because they fly modern A330's where the oldest is 17 years old, and now you suggest to get an ancient 120 where the youngest flying anywhere in the world is 17 years old...

And if I read a bit through your posts, you seem to be under the impression that there is no way SN will ever make money with any aircraft other then your wet dreams, the Q400 and the 120... Any company can, but SN can't... Why so narrow minded? People hand you some real good suggestions and arguments, but you just dissmiss everything you don't want to read... Ultimately, in any businessplan, also yours, not listening or taking notice to other visions, only lead downhill...

On topic:
I think the E-Jet and the C-Series are the only real candidates to replace the Avro's. Both will probably do the job well, but it will probably come down to LH. They will be operating them both in the not to distant future. So will they hand down the E-Jets, or help SN invest in C-Series.
Qualitywise, I think Bombardier builds better aircraft than Embraer, but I honestly have to say that Embraers get better with every generation. We'll see...

[Flanker2]

If there is an Embraer aircraft that can help SN, it's the Brasilia.

Yeah... Very consistand you are... In one topic you give SN a hard time because they fly modern A330's where the oldest is 17 years old, and now you suggest to get an ancient 120 where the youngest flying anywhere in the world is 17 years old...

And if I read a bit through your posts, you seem to be under the impression that there is no way SN will ever make money with any aircraft other then your wet dreams, the Q400 and the 120... Any company can, but SN can't... Why so narrow minded? People hand you some real good suggestions and arguments, but you just dissmiss everything you don't want to read... Ultimately, in any businessplan, also yours, not listening or taking notice to other visions, only lead downhill...

I think that you are misunderstanding my posts or reading through them too fast. I'm saying that these aircraft are no good for any airline in the world including SN, but especially SN who needs efficient small-sized aircraft to get out of their current issues.
The CS100 is no good even to LX, but LX can afford to lose a bit of money with the CS100 because they will fly them fuller and make up for losses elsewhere. SN can't afford that mistake.

The E190 is heavier than the Avro. It's also much more expensive to lease and as Jetblue has recently found out, they come with some occasional maintenance surprises. SN's sweet spot is around 50-70 seats. If they grow, they could add larger aircraft later. But 50-70 seats RJ's are not economical.
Embraer still make Emb120's on demand. 30 seats, very fuel efficient, ideal for new regional routes. They also came with maintenance surprises, but most have been designed out during service. There are still many Bro's flying around.

I don't give SN any hard time with the old A330's, I give a hard time about SN maybe not being adequately prepared to deal with the issues of operating old A330's, resulting in the obvious consequences of cancelled flights. That's a big difference.

[RTM]

If these planes arn't good for any company, why would any company take them? Yet, they are a big succes for the manufacturers... Are they overlooking a point? Or are you? In all fairness, is it more likely that everybody else is wrong? Or just one person?
And I am not saying these planes are ideal, but the best answer to what is currently on the market. I do agree that a turboprop is a much more fuel efficient solution, especially in the 50-70 pax market. I am sticking to your numbers, just for arguments sake, not because I think it is true.
Now,... SN has tried the 70 seater Q400. So you can't blame them for not trying, but appearantly, it doesn't fill their needs. The only other vyable alternative, the ATR72, wouldn't be different. More or less the same cargospace, and appearantly, there is the biggest issue. Bigger turboprop just don't exist these days. So,... jets then... The most modern, and fuel efficient RJ's...? E-Jet and C-series. That's just the way it is. No arguing or hammering from your side is going to change that. How they will make it work for them, is up to them. But since the aim for the european network is not strictly to make money, but get as close to break even as possible should give some room to figure something out. Also bear in mind that by then probably/hopefully, LH is calling the shots, and they most likely get better deals with manufacturers to get the lease prices down.

The 120 idea is just rediculous. You yourself predict a 50-70 seater. So lets get production restarted for a relic from the previous century. A 30 seater no less. Just doesn't ad up, does it? Apart from it being uncomfortable, noisy and a maintenance nightmare. And to match the capacity, you would need more aircraft and more crew. Not a winning scenario I think. Better select a plane based upon your needs... Not the other way around. Also, you state that the 120 is ideal for venturing on new routes. Well, that might be true, but SN isn't looking for aircraft to open new routes, they are looking for aircraft to replace their fuel inefficient Avro's on existing routes. Quite a difference if you ask me.

As for the A330 comment... Says who?

Just a thought... Lets give SN management some time, it looks like they are actually turning things around. Without your wisdom. So give them some slack, it is not all bad. Many roads lead to Rome. And the fact that it is not your road they are traveling on, doesn't mean it is a bad road...