Brussels Airlines : pilots strike looming

[EBAW_flyer]

What about tomorrow?

[sean1982]

De Tijd often has more in depth information and is mentioning 4 breaking points in the negotiation:
http://www.tijd.be/nieuws/ondernemingen ... 9-3085.art

Interesting read. It still amazes me that the unions found support for a strike for those reasons. Hurting your company at a difficult time like this is just not smart. Not to be funny but the ticket desk in CRL was very busy selling tickets to MAD and BUD today :-/

[Passenger]

What happens to the passengers whose flights have been cancelled and who were not able to get another flight.
Do they get a reimbursement? Or is it just, bad luck, but we'll take your money anyway?

Flights can be either changed to another date without the usual associated costs, or reimbursed in full.

Indeed, and it's the passenger who has the choice: rebooking or reimbursement.

The airline also has to pay for meals and telephone costs.

And if the passengers are stuck at the airport, also for hotel costs (dinner/bed/breakfast).

[fcw]

De Tijd often has more in depth information and is mentioning 4 breaking points in the negotiation:
http://www.tijd.be/nieuws/ondernemingen ... 9-3085.art

Interesting read. It still amazes me that the unions found support for a strike for those reasons. Hurting your company at a difficult time like this is just not smart. Not to be funny but the ticket desk in CRL was very busy selling tickets to MAD and BUD today :-/

Sean do you know about how much we are talking?
As far as I understood, it is about a substantial part of their salary.
BruAir pilots agreed to work 90% for 90% pay, the company pays them 90%, but they still work fulltime, they don't get their unpaid days...
In the past there was a special pension for aircrew, funded by double contributions for both employer and employee. As a hidden state aid, BruAir was allowed to keep the money of these contributions instead of paying yhem to the state. As a direct result the system became too expensive and pilots lost their extra pension. Today BruAir is still deducting the contributions (>10%) from the salaries! Pilots are paying for a pension which doesn't even exist.
So in total BruAir is "stealing" 20% from the pilots. Do you still think this is about nothing?

[lumumba]

De Tijd often has more in depth information and is mentioning 4 breaking points in the negotiation:
http://www.tijd.be/nieuws/ondernemingen ... 9-3085.art

Interesting read. It still amazes me that the unions found support for a strike for those reasons. Hurting your company at a difficult time like this is just not smart. Not to be funny but the ticket desk in CRL was very busy selling tickets to MAD and BUD today :-/

Sean do you know about how much we are talking?
As far as I understood, it is about a substantial part of their salary.
BruAir pilots agreed to work 90% for 90% pay, the company pays them 90%, but they still work fulltime, they don't get their unpaid days...
In the past there was a special pension for aircrew, funded by double contributions for both employer and employee. As a hidden state aid, BruAir was allowed to keep the money of these contributions instead of paying yhem to the state. As a direct result the system became too expensive and pilots lost their extra pension. Today BruAir is still deducting the contributions (>10%) from the salaries! Pilots are paying for a pension which doesn't even exist.
So in total BruAir is "stealing" 20% from the pilots. Do you still think this is about nothing?

Maybe you are right but to strike is like committing suicide,SN is a poor airliners with a very bad situation.

[Pocahontas]

We were not happy there was a strike. But we have to give a strong signal now. We lost too much over the last years, and they keep on taking. I hope a solution will be found pretty soon.

[papysn]

Hi,

Sn is an airline in bad situation due lack of basic investment and poor management decisions (vex...) and attitude.

strike has to end but management has to change....

Regards.

K.

[RoMax]

strike has to end but management has to change....

The management that made the critical mistakes in the past has changed for a significant part by now. The current management has the support of LH, so I don't see them leaving unless they are not able to cope with crisis situations like this.

[euroflyer]

the only thing I do know: if this will be the "new (old) trend" at SN, LH will withdraw faster than some might imagine … if it is a one-off event, ok, that might still be accepted, but anything more will be the end for the LH "partnership" with SN, LH does not need SN at all, I am not so sure if this can be said the other way round as well ...

Sorry, but you seem to have forgotten that no so long ago LH crew went on strike, too. Are they entitled to strike and b.air crew not ?

That being clarified, I'm increasingly convinced that Peter Kranich's departure from b.air is probably a sign of what is to follow (LH not taking over b.air 100 %, but putting its current stake up for sale; perhaps we can hope that Etihad does with b.air what it is doing with Air Serbia and Darwin).

You forgot one difference: LH is already owned by LH, even if pilots or other employees go on strike, they can hardly close down the company; with SN, the story is different, LH still has the choice to take over 100% or not to take over … and I know my German compatriots … if they feel they will buy problems and challenges and labour unrests with taking over SN, they will not do it, as simple as this, again, LH does not need SN in any way; they can always use four or five of their own long-haul planes and offer the flights to Africa themselves, it might not work as good as for SN, but LH can survive a long period of a "price war" on those - compared to the LH network - few routes; can SN afford such a price war ?? Neither AF/KLM, nor BA/IB or LH does need SN and if LH steps back I do not see anybody else to step in, it will be the start of the end of SN in my view; simply for this reasons I would be extremely careful if I would be an SN employee, but hey, everybody has to make his/her own decisions => just do not complain about the outcome, you had the choice ...

[Pleasonton]

the only thing I do know: if this will be the "new (old) trend" at SN, LH will withdraw faster than some might imagine … if it is a one-off event, ok, that might still be accepted, but anything more will be the end for the LH "partnership" with SN, LH does not need SN at all, I am not so sure if this can be said the other way round as well ...

Sorry, but you seem to have forgotten that no so long ago LH crew went on strike, too. Are they entitled to strike and b.air crew not ?

That being clarified, I'm increasingly convinced that Peter Kranich's departure from b.air is probably a sign of what is to follow (LH not taking over b.air 100 %, but putting its current stake up for sale; perhaps we can hope that Etihad does with b.air what it is doing with Air Serbia and Darwin).

You forgot one difference: LH is already owned by LH, even if pilots or other employees go on strike, they can hardly close down the company; with SN, the story is different, LH still has the choice to take over 100% or not to take over … and I know my German compatriots … if they feel they will buy problems and challenges and labour unrests with taking over SN, they will not do it, as simple as this, again, LH does not need SN in any way; they can always use four or five of their own long-haul planes and offer the flights to Africa themselves, it might not work as good as for SN, but LH can survive a long period of a "price war" on those - compared to the LH network - few routes; can SN afford such a price war ?? Neither AF/KLM, nor BA/IB or LH does need SN and if LH steps back I do not see anybody else to step in, it will be the start of the end of SN in my view; simply for this reasons I would be extremely careful if I would be an SN employee, but hey, everybody has to make his/her own decisions => just do not complain about the outcome, you had the choice ...

Agreed - It is just my personal opinion (I do not work in the airline industry) but I would rather work for less than do not have a job at all ...
Thus in summary: "Careful what you wish for ..."

[Flanker2]

I'm very surprised that the pilots did go through and with this large an impact. That must be the first actual real strike since the reborn SN era?

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. A great expression... for a dog or other pet maybe.
After all those strike threats about more serious stuff, they now suddenly decide to strike for something small... some high-earning captains who want to continue to earn big instead of staying home for a decent pension.

Flying for an airline nowadays is a losing proposition. You invest so much energy, money and time into it, yet you don't get anything back. I'm surprised that there are still people so desperate as to accept and do that. It's not passion, but lunacy.

I would look for something new to do. If you're unhappy working by your bosse's rules and bias, look for a new boss.

[FlightMate]

2nd strike, actually, Flanker.
There had been one in ... 2004 or 2005? Similar to this one. No more flights after they came back to BRU, and no flights leaving BRU until midday. All long-haul departed though.

It was when management decided to remove 2 days from every leave period (stating pilots shouldn't count on having week-ends after a block of leave). They were short of pilots at the time. Could have been in 2006 then. CEO was Kuypers.

The result was an immediate strike on the next day, with only a few flights departing.

Concerning this strike, I find management's comments stupid. "pilots should be happy, they can now work at 100% a year earlier". For 80% of the pay? Who would be happy? And it appears pilots do even work more than 100%.

[sean1982]

Concerning this strike, I find management's comments stupid. "pilots should be happy, they can now work at 100% a year earlier". For 80% of the pay? Who would be happy? And it appears pilots do even work more than 100%.

Now is the question: how much is the pay? So they are earning 20% less then "X" amount of years ago? Isn't that normal for a company with huge losses every year? How can one expect to earn more and more every year is if you're company is not making money? What are the other advantages? Groepsverzekering? Holiday pay? 13th month? How many hours Max can you fly a year? What explains the high difference between in pay a CPT flying BRU-PUJ and a CPT flying BRU-JFK?

So is 20% enough to destroy the image of your company? Or do you really think that the American business man that had to queue 4 hours yesterday in BRU to get onto another flight that is going to get him to new york much later is ever going to fly SN again? These are the people that pay your wages. Not the management.

[Pocahontas]

We'll see what you'll have to say when MOL decides to take 20% of your salary and bases you in Syberia.

[sean1982]

My company is doing well so that not the point. I do know for myself if they touch my wage or my base im out of there. But striking? Never! So explain me Pocahontas, you seem to be so pro-striking. How do YOU justify the high difference in wages between SN and the rest in Belgium? And how do YOU justify, keeping that in mind, pushing your company even deeper down the drain by striking for a wage that's allready a lot better than the rest?

[b720]

Well said Sean!
It is indeed those who were inconvenienced that pay the wages..
People often forget that!

[Ducatibiker]

We'll see what you'll have to say when MOL decides to take 20% of your salary and bases you in Syberia.

…or Air France/Hop gives you E-training at 5 in the morning for the new check in system - a real mess which confirms a very weak airline management in various markets in Europe. The passengers also suffer the consequences in poorer and poorer service. So Pilots, keep striking. The message is also that some PAX have enough with this deterioration of services experienced with SN because of bad management. And I won't be surprised that there soon will be an Air France strike as well…but that's another topic.

[Pocahontas]

Just to be clear before I leave this discussion: I am not PRO-striking!!!

One last thing:

Concerning this strike, I find management's comments stupid. "pilots should be happy, they can now work at 100% a year earlier". For 80% of the pay? Who would be happy? And it appears pilots do even work more than 100%.

Now is the question: how much is the pay? So they are earning 20% less then "X" amount of years ago? Isn't that normal for a company with huge losses every year? How can one expect to earn more and more every year is if you're company is not making money? What are the other advantages? Groepsverzekering? Holiday pay? 13th month? How many hours Max can you fly a year? What explains the high difference between in pay a CPT flying BRU-PUJ and a CPT flying BRU-JFK?

So is 20% enough to destroy the image of your company? Or do you really think that the American business man that had to queue 4 hours yesterday in BRU to get onto another flight that is going to get him to new york much later is ever going to fly SN again? These are the people that pay your wages. Not the management.

This post proves you don't have a clue about our remuneration package.

[sean1982]

That's what you say! So why do you refuse to answer my questions? That's right because there is no reason to justify what you are doing. Enjoy your infomeeting. Your wage paying pax are still running away in the mean time. Dont complain about load factors next month

[FlightMate]

Hey Sean, from what I know, salary is half than at FR, hours depend on LH or MH, no 13th month, but yes, holiday pay (legal for all belgian employees, I believe) and group insurance.

It's funny how one day, you're bashing SN and its management, and the next day, defending them.

Would you work for SN if you were giving the chance? If not, why not? And don't tell me because people strike too much
Where would you go if FR were to cut your salary? Just curious. Wouldn't you want to stay and keep your pay, if you had the opportunity?

Like I said before, a strike is less bad for the company than all the disgruntled employees leaving at the same time.
In 2007-2008, so many pilots left SN that they had to cancel flights, and pay a very expensive salary to contracts pilots. And that's when pilots didn't leave at the same time.
Imagine FR, AF, KL or EK offering 400 positions to SN pilots at the same time. Pouf, no more SN.
But that would be too smart