onur in belgium

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LJ
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Post by LJ »

Here the Onur Air A300 fleet (any corrections or additions welcome)
The also have the TC-OAK and TC-OAO (formerly D-AIAW). The TC-SGA isn't going to Europe as it's reported that there are some insurance related problems.

Regarding the touroperators. The IVW told them that, although they given them a warning, there was no immediate chance of a ban. However, next they they banned the airline (in the morning I received a mail from Corendon about the Onur Air issue and few hours later I heard oon the enws about the ban). The Dutch touroperators are somewhat annoyed about this incident as it makes them look bad.

SN30952
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This a bad, bad situation, it is a bad bad omen.

Post by SN30952 »

LJ wrote:The Dutch touroperators are somewhat annoyed about this incident as it makes them look bad.
I can dig that... "somewhat annoyed", you say LJ. Imagine how the passengers feel.
This a bad, bad situation: how it got so far and how it has been handled.
There is a total lack of respect for the client. At least when an airline or/and a tour operator accept the money of a client the least they can do is show respect for the people and their lives. Did you read about any apologies?

This attitude shows how the turkish carrier considers its clients: shut up and pay. In Turkey when you not shut up, you get killed, if your 'more' lucky you go in jail. Remember the movie about the worst prisons on the planet. How can a nation that not admits its mistakes, re the armenian question, show any respect to other nations. How will it respect the laws of other nations or communities. It is a bad bad omen.

PS. Not only the turkish aircraft shake, a section of 100km of the coast near Antalya was also shaking this weekend. Cheap tickets with high emotions content.
Last edited by SN30952 on 16 May 2005, 00:37, edited 2 times in total.

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A318
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Post by A318 »

A little off-topic but do you know what is also good to see, how Turkey react to it's possible future fellow EU countries because an airline is banned. Transavia.com and Martinair were not allowed to fly to Turkey and could expect safety checks on all planes! This is again an good eye opener for the EU politicians.

However I don't think the A300's are getting bad but it is all about bad maintenance. It is not a surprise to see all problems are going on with Turkish Airlines. Which countries are flying also with A300's? Do they have also these problems, are they on a watchlist or even banned from airspace?
The answers on these questions will show you which is the problem, the age of the A300's or the bad maintenance from Turkish carriers.

Greetz,

Erwin
A Whole Different Animal

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Gate-A1
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Post by Gate-A1 »

From the news of RTL-TVI/ Two A-300 of Onur Air has ben check and are baned (the aircrafts not Onur) from Belgium.

dyogen
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Re: This a bad, bad situation, it is a bad bad omen.

Post by dyogen »

SN30952 wrote: This attitude shows how the turkish carrier considers its clients: shut up and pay. In Turkey when you not shut up, you get killed, if your 'more' lucky you go in jail. Remember the movie about the worst prisons on the planet. How can a nation that not admits its mistakes, re the armenian question, show any respect to other nations. How will it respect the laws of other nations or communities. It is a bad bad omen.
Hi SN30952,
As far as I know this ban is a technical issue due to the lack of necessary safety precautions rather than a political one which tries to prevent Turks "being a part of EU" since "they will kill you if you talk".
But if you put it in this way, I am afraid your attitude exemplifies your racist attitude towards Turkish people and Turkey. When we consider this racist attitude, it is not surprising to learn that Europeans are the responsibles of the biggest massacres in 20th century including two world wars.

You may have serious concerns about human rights report of Turkey (as me as a Turkish citizen) but this has nothing to do with the discussion of banning a Turkish flight operator. Moreover, discussing human rights record of Turkey becomes extremely complex when you consider how capitalist and imperialist endavour of West forced Turkish politicians on being dictators disrespecting human rights in Turkey in the past (Nowadays, you can talk as much as you want in Turkey , noone will kill you, and you will not be put in jail )
I was just trying to learn more about the ban on Onur Air and I came accross your unfortunate comment. I think the most important thing a human being must always keep in his/her mind is to be a "human being" at first. Shame on you!

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beaucaire
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Re: This a bad, bad situation, it is a bad bad omen.

Post by beaucaire »

SN30952 wrote:
This attitude shows how the turkish carrier considers its clients: shut up and pay. In Turkey when you not shut up, you get killed, if your 'more' lucky you go in jail. Remember the movie about the worst prisons on the planet. How can a nation that not admits its mistakes, re the armenian question, show any respect to other nations. How will it respect the laws of other nations or communities. It is a bad bad omen.

PS. Not only the turkish aircraft shake, a section of 100km of the coast near Antalya was also shaking this weekend. Cheap tickets with high emotions content.
I find these remarks racist,unjustified and unrelated !
before accusing Turkey all evels in this world ,look at our allies UK and USA and analyse their behaviour in Irak !
ONUR will come out of this crisis stronger than before,because the turkish learn fast and draw the right conclusions ( mostly at least..)
Before accusing a company based on outside reports and eventually biased reports, wait and watch what will happen and how the news shall develop.
Some of the incidents tied to ONUR where clearly not ONUR's responsability but to admit their respective repsonsability that will take some time from those really responsible...( Engine-maintenance from thirs party companies,FMS avioniks - related to the Groningen incident )

SN30952
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Re: This a bad, bad situation, it is a bad bad omen.

Post by SN30952 »

dyogen wrote:Hi SN30952,
As far as I know this ban is a technical issue due to the lack of necessary safety precautions rather than a political one which tries to prevent Turks "being a part of EU" since "they will kill you if you talk".
But if you put it in this way, I am afraid your attitude exemplifies your racist attitude towards Turkish people and Turkey. When we consider this racist attitude, it is not surprising to learn that Europeans are the responsibles of the biggest massacres in 20th century including two world wars 1).
You may have serious concerns about human rights report of Turkey (as me as a Turkish citizen) but this has nothing to do with the discussion of banning a Turkish flight operator. I was just trying to learn more about the ban on Onur Air and I came accross your unfortunate comment. I think the most important thing a human being must always keep in his/her mind is to be a "human being" at first. Shame on you!

Merhaba dyogen,
Please do not 'hi' me, if you do not know me, we have not been introduced. And I'm probably older than you.
I have a Turkish daughter and I know Turkey very well for having been there hundreds of time. I have seen the turkish army pointing their guns to citizens of their own country. I was in Izmir when turkish armoured vehicles pointed at civilians, I have seen many things, including lately on satellite TV how turkish police beated up protesting turkish women. None of these events were ordered by a foreign instance. I, myself, years ago I nearly escaped from death in Istanbul, Galatasaray, I almost got hit by a terrorist bomb some 20 years ago. And that weren't foreign bomb layers either. I need no history lessons and I can do without the insults too. I know Istanbul before it had Ataturk Airport in Yesilkoy, when almost all the vapors were still real vapors, and when there were no streetcars yet. And Turkey in my eyes was nicer then, but that is strict personal.

I do not see the reason why you are insulting me. 8O You come the first time to this forum 'to learn more about the ban on Onur Air', and you start shouting at me personally? You are a turkish citizen? Well, that shows your attitude. Lucky I'm not near, I guess, you would probably not leave it with insults?
What I said was that I observed a lack of respect of operators to their clients. This is technical issue. If Turkey is allowed* to operate flights out of the EU and Switzerland, than its operator should adhere to the rules of this community concerning all the technical aspects of air transport. Here we have a democratic law and order. In our civilization laws are made to protect the weaker member of our society. Is what you are pretending that all these counties are 'racists' because they are protecting their citizens.
dyogen wrote:....I think the most important thing a human being must always keep in his/her mind is to be a "human being" at first. Shame on you!
I agree with that too, and we know how fair justice is in your republic, The highest European Court stated on that recently.
To answer to your statement: to keep in mind is also the respect for people of all conditions: tourists are not only people one can take hard concurrency from, it also a person who has to be respected, and his live cannot be put into jeopardy, by transporting him by air in equipment that is not upto the standards.

*Allowed, means it is granted, it is not a right. All the concerned flights are not regular flights. Many but not me, might come up with the idea to revoke this privilege.
Note: A 'hoc geldiniz' would apply to all citizens of your republic. But do not overstay your welcome, please. 8O
Shame on you! :wink:

And finally, in the first WW, the Turks took side of the Germans. Both were severely punished for their acts, and both were occupied by the victorious allies.... Do the Germans call me racist for saying that?
Last edited by SN30952 on 16 May 2005, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »

Mon May 16, 2005 15:55 pm: Are there 71% racists @ Luchtzak's poll: Would you trust Onur Air?

LJ
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Post by LJ »

Can someone alter the quoted text in beaucaire's mail?????? I didn't write that!

There is a total lack of respect for the client. At least when an airline or/and a tour operator accept the money of a client the least they can do is show respect for the people and their lives. Did you read about any apologies?
Just to be clear they're annoyed at the IVW for not giving them the correct info. The touroperators asked IVW if they would ban Onur, which the IVW denied. Less than 24 hours later they did ban Onur. Needless to say the touroperators would have liked to be informed before the news hit the wires and thus could take action.

TC-MNE

Post by TC-MNE »

what about Mng and fly air, they have also some OLD A300's...haven't they? Are those planes safe?

The A300 becomes a rare plane... except in Turkey... why do they buy or lease all these A300's????? :?: :?:

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Post by V-Bird »

Flyair received the last german / swiss / dutch warning.

When an a300 gets good maintance ( like eat / dhl and TNT ) and the crew is well trained, its an good and safe aircraft!

SN30952
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Peccadillos?

Post by SN30952 »

V-Bird wrote:When an a300 gets good maintance and the crew is well trained, its an good and safe aircraft!

Not so long ago, I was seeing the clouds coming(1), and I referred to SAFA drawing the attention of the willing members to the problem. (long before shit happened...)
Safa stands for Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft Programme

I make a quick overview:
International civil aviation is governed by the Convention on International Civil Aviation (commonly known as the Chicago Convention).
Under this Convention, the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), a specialised agency of the United Nations, sets the minimum(2) Standards and Recommended Practices for international civil aviation.
These standards are contained in 18 Annexes to the Convention. Individual States remain responsible for regulating their aviation industries but have to take into account the requirements of the Convention and the minimum standards established by ICAO.

The main standards that apply to airlines are in three of the 18 Annexes.
¨ Annex 1 deals with personnel licensing including flight crew
¨ Annex 6 deals with the operation of aircraft; and
¨ Annex 8 deals with airworthiness.
The principles of the programme are simple: in each ECAC (*) State, foreign aircraft (ECAC or non-ECAC) can be inspected.

Which aircraft and operators are checked and how often?

Oversight authorities of ECAC Member States choose which aircraft to inspect. Some authorities carry out random inspections while others try to target aircraft or airlines that they suspect may not comply with ICAO standards. In either case only a very small proportion of foreign aircraft operating into each State are inspected.


This is civil aviation, meaning even military complexes operating on commercial basis civil airtransport have to adhere to these standards.

Countries maybe excluded by the UN of participation in civil aviation (also in shipping), which happened to military dictators and other sanctioned countries.

iow, these standards are not established for migrating birds!

(*) (ECAC) European Civil Aviation Conference .
(*) The 41 Member States of ECAC are: Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia and Montenegro, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom.

(1) I suppose many, and certainly experts, have seen the clouds forming over some operators, but preferred to 'shut up', as they feared to be called 'racists'. But this kind of intimidation was fired at me earlier, but that is in my perception says more about the senders than about the target. Usually these senders do not know what they're talking about.
(2) Minimum means standards sine qua non. Minimum can be severe! Do not mistake on that.
Even when carriers and media of some countries are saying, yes we are banned on 'minimum standard conditions'. Precisely the same ones, who do not know what they're talking about, will consider 'minimum as low treshold, and the defects as peccadillos.

About ignorance: Albert Einstein said:
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Daniel Boorstin said:
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge.
Martin Luther King, Jr.:
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Zoom if you want :wink:

SN30952
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Official procedures against business intrest.

Post by SN30952 »

Mr Vreede, Onur's dutch lawyer, submitted maintenance data of Onur's fleet and reports of the IVW, the dutch Inspectorate to a belgian expert.
The primary conclusions of the professor are, says Mr Vreede, that based on these papers a flightban for Onur is not justified.


a - Did you expect something else from any lawyer*?
b - What are the qualifications of the expert? And how objective and neutral is that expert*?
c - Are the submitted documents not misleading the expert? Does he have all the reports?

There is a lot of 'noise' in the communication coming from the carrier's side.
Praiseworthy IVW stays mute, as long as its investigation and coordination with its turkish inspection counterpart is not concluded. Playing it by the procedures manual. The way Onur, leaving angrily IVW's HQ, and its lawyer proceed, does not show great respect for procedures.

Onur and its lawyer threaten to go to court for compensation pending the flightban, during the procedure. Meaning what ever is the conclusion, they will not accept it. A kind of intimidation: we will hit you, IVW? If they hit IVW, the Inspectorate of the dutch Ministry of Verkeer en Waterstaat, Transport, they hit the Minister. If they hit the Dutch, then also the Germans, here again it goes to the top, the Bundesminister, and all the problem spreads to political level. Do they really wish that**? How do politicians retaliate?

It is to hope they not forget, these extra, non-scheduled flights from outside Europe, are allowed, granted and are not a right.
In the worst scenario, let's say, in case the dutch state should be condemned to any compensation, the airline could end up paying this compensation by itself, in form of royalties for traffic rights.
Once this happens this could easily spill over to the other european states. (Maybe that is the hidden agenda? - great scenario! Did the Turk fall in an ambush? Kaum zu glauben...)
(Since the Germans started to charge for the use of their Autobahnen, every european country seems to want to do that)

**In international law, diplomacy is the better consultant.

*Note: The lawyer and the expert are of course paid by Onur, need we to say?.

dyogen
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Reply to SN30952

Post by dyogen »

First of all, I apologise everyone on this forum of being a part of a non-technical discussion (although my 2 cent purpose was just to highlight this!)of which most of you is not interested. I assure you that this is the end of the discussion on my side.


SN30952,
Unfortunately, you continue speaking with a racist attitude by trying to catagorize me as a rude person who is not aware of politeness by highlighting a simple greeting word "hi" in my msg."hi" is used widely as a greeting word in the forums all around the world as far as I experience.Nevertheless, I apologise for that.

Moreover, You don't speak about humanity and continue on blaming all Turkish people in political ground by giving examples from the past practices of Turkish Governments. I know I can't change your racist look on other people,but I just wanted to higlight that ban on Onur air has nothing to do with Armenians or with innocent people who were shot since they just talked.

I also do not mean that everyone which does not trust Onur air is a racist. I am terrified how you could come up with such a conclusion after reading my reply. Personally, I was reading the messages just to take my personal precautions not to fly with Onur Air if a serious technical problem is the reason of the ban.

You speak of your civilization and its strict regulations which everyone must obey. I recommend you to read "Modernity and Holocaust" from Zygmunt Baumann", a famaous sociologist and not a Turk. You might understand how strict regulations of modern world could be used to organise a weapon of mass destruction ending up with Holocaust in WW2. Similarly and unfortunately, strict regulations of modern world end up with a racist look towards other people in your case.

I like reading about aviation and I will not stop surfing through these pages although I realized that some of the authors are racists.

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earthman
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Post by earthman »

Onur got a ban because they show an alarming lack of concern with safety.

I am pretty sure it had little to do with the Armenian genocide. If you want to discuss that, please do so in another forum.

As to why Belgium still lets Onur fly, all I can say is that it's Belgium, and that really is enough of an explanation.

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Post by sn26567 »

Gentlemen,

I suggest that your comments remain exclusively technical, otherwise I will be compelled to archive the topic and remove all the posts that do not comply with the forum rule about politics, religion, etc.
André
ex Sabena #26567

snowbird
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Post by snowbird »

A Dutch European Parlement Member has released the following press release.
Source: www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl




DEN HAAG - De Turkse chartermaatschappij Onur Air moet uit Europa worden geweerd. Dat vindt de SP-europarlementariër Erik Meijer. Het feit dat ondanks een vliegverbod in onder andere Nederland, Duitsland en Frankrijk Onur Air nog gewoon in België welkom is noemt hij ‘een onaanvaardbare situatie'. Meijer vraagt de Europese Commissie vandaag (17 mei) om maatregelen.

“Het wekt toch verbazing dat je met Onur-Air om goede redenen niet meer naar Nederland mag vliegen, maar voor hetzelfde geldt wél naar Brussel kunt”, vraagt Meijer zich af. “Voor passagiers wordt het zo wel heel onduidelijk. Mij lijkt dat de onveiligheid van Onur-Air in het Belgische luchtruim niet anders is dan boven Nederland

Naar aanleiding van het vliegtuigongeluk in januari 2004 met een Boeing 737 van Flash Airlines in de Rode Zee, zijn door de Europese Commissie maatregelen ter verbetering van de veiligheid aangekondigd. Deze laten volgens het parlementslid echter nog op zich wachten. Hij pleit voor onderlinge afspraken om twijfelachtige maatschappijen gezamenlijk te weren.

Brief translation:
Mr E. Meijer want to abondon all ONUR flights out of Europa. He does not understand why Belgium still allows ONUR to operate on Belgium airports, while other countries has followed nehterlands.
He ask the EC to take immediately measurements against ONUR.

MD80_4_ever
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No idea

Post by MD80_4_ever »

Sorry to say, but nobody has an idea whats going on since the last 5 pages.
After Aero Lloyd got bankrupt 1,5 years ago only Aeroflight was the once Airline which was dealing with flights to turkey from germany.
After Öger Tours, the biggest Tour operator in germany / europe got the major market position he increased all passanger cost by 30%.

Öger Tours is 100% owner of ATLAS JET in Turkey. Onur Air has most of all flights to europe.........

Klingkeling!!!!!

Whats the best way??? when you are in major market position?

Destroy "the others" and expend your own Airline!!!

Mr. Öger is Member of the european parlament!!! no one is talking about, why not?

By the way; all Airlines NL, Be, De are really pissed off about Onur Air; everbody must take care about jobs and politics.

SN30952
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Brokkenpiloten are killing our jobs.

Post by SN30952 »

snowbird wrote:A Dutch European Parlement Member has released the following press release. Source: www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl.

The original* source is: (SP is de Socialist Party of Nederland) http://europa.sp.nl/bericht/050517-weer ... uropa.html
Ik heb Dhr Erik Meijer uiteraard kopie gestuurd van deze Forum inhoud. :wink: Inclusief de beschuldingen.
I leave you to translate, bericht/050517-weer_onur_air_uit_europa.html, what is a wide tendency in the EU Parliament.

My comment:
When an aviation subject is a matter discussed in EUP, it is not off topic, I guess. Now all depends how you see, and how you rate 'comments [to] remain exclusively technical'. Of course when opinions are not in concordance with your opinion, they are of topic. When the argumentive comments are too strong, you call the author a racist.

The basic of my arguments is: We, Europeans have to protect (legally) our (aviation) industry, we have the right to that.
Indeed, we do not want 'brokkenpiloten' in our skies as says the honorable EP-member. Brokkenpiloten are killing our jobs. (That was and will be my argument also in granting eg Middle East carriers access to our skies: at least reciprocity and same application of all industry standards - including social industry relations. I would make an exception to african carriers, as Europe has a tremendous debt towards Africa. But that is a personal opinion, to what I am entitled.)

*This debate is going for months, now, if not years.

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Post by Advisor »

THIS IS WHAT OUR PART OF THE WORLD HAS HEARD: Onur Air of Istanbul has been banned from Dutch, French, German and Swiss airspace and airports for one month due to safety concerns.
Aum Sweet Aum.

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