Brussels Airlines future and financial perspective

[Inquirer]

Well, sir, if you'd have bothered to have actually read what flanker2 posted, you'd have noticed it is in immediate reply to a suggestion for a product improvement he'd made here!
You know, in the very same post you've quoted in full as it is containing a very good point according to you.
Strange...

[sean1982]

Right, you want me to pick out one word of a 600 word post ... I read it diagonally and I still think he has a point.
What is the current justifcation for the very high B.business prices? 1 extra suit case and a meal? I can go to "hof van cleve" for that money.

[cnc]

Please, keep WiFi out of planes, especially if it is not restricted to just e-mail reading!

The last thing I'd want is to have somebody sitting around me browsing youtube together with his girlfriend and having the volume all up; they may enjoy all that, but there really is no need to enforce their 'pleasures' on fellow travelers!!!!!

offtopic but every airline i know offering wifi has it restricted, youtube and other high volume sites are blocked along with some protocols

[Inquirer]

Right, you want me to pick out one word of a 600 word post ... I read it diagonally

Which is fine, but then when you make remarks on whether a reply is on topic or not, better read it in full first then? Just common sense to me?

What is the current justifcation for the very high B.business prices?

Who's flying business class on short haul anyway these days?
It's forbidden by travel policies at all companies that I know of, so whatever the price and the product is, it's just something offered pro forma in my view.

BTW; are you aware of the typical marketing trick that if you want to stimulate people to buy more of something than they really want, you have to offer an even bigger version, right at the top of your product range?

Check out on Mc Donalds reason for having such huge coke's for instance: their turnover on drinks increased by over 30% after they introduced a yet bigger cup than what they had before, despite only 2% of their customers actually buying that one, just because psychologically, people aim for the middle and so a whole lot of people simply sized up between already existing cups and started buying more than before.
Maybe a good trick for your employer too, although he's already using that marketing trick on many occasions too, and rightfully so as it works very well.

[RoMax]

I read it diagonally and I still think he has a point.
What is the current justifcation for the very high B.business prices? 1 extra suit case and a meal? I can go to "hof van cleve" for that money.

Instead of reading it diagonally, read it completely including my responses to it on why it doesn't make sense to introduce a real business class on the short EU flights.

[sean1982]

I read it ... but I don't agree .. is that allowed?

[RoMax]

I read it ... but I don't agree .. is that allowed?

Of course it is but rather instead of placing worthless posts such as all the above, state arguments instead of "I think he has a point", "what are you talking about", "I don't agree".

[Passenger]

I read it ... but I don't agree .. is that allowed?

Agree, but maybe you can allow us to disagree with you when Ryanair is discussed on this forum.

[sean1982]

Sure, as long as they are not lies or outdated stuff why not.

[RoMax]

Sure, as long as they are not lies or outdated stuff why not.

I would still like to see arguments from your side on why you would think a real business class in Europe would work.

[sean1982]

I'm not saying that it would work. At that price that's what I would EXPECT. Things like PTV, WiFi (those where even available in economy, albeit paying) plush salon seats we're all there when I was flying in the states. And no it was not a widebody.

Current offerings could be acceptable, at a better price.

[Passenger]

Sure, as long as they are not lies or outdated stuff why not.

I would still like to see arguments from your side on why you would think a real business class in Europe would work.

Euh, RoMax, I don't think we can expect that someone who works for Ryanair is going to tell us how Brussels Airlines can improve its Business Class. That is, if one assumes that there is no one within Brussels Airlines who knows how to improve their own product...

[RoMax]

I'm not saying that it would work. At that price that's what I would EXPECT. Things like PTV, WiFi (those where even available in economy, albeit paying) plush salon seats we're all there when I was flying in the states. And no it was not a widebody.

As I said, the states is a different market, well actually Europe is the big exception in this case. Altough you might expect those things for such prices, airlines are not going to pay for it for just a few pax paying for it. Even if you get great meals, a very comfortable seat, AVOD PTV's,... people are not going to pay 800 euro's for a flight to let's say Madrid. The only people that do that, are those that really have to fly and want to take a business ticket...well as I clearly stated on the previous page of this topic, these people fly anyway.

There is really no benefit for the airlines to (re-)introduce such a product. If it would work, don't you think airlines would be doing it right now? BA for example recently introduced a much higher comfort configuration on a part of their A321 fleet (a renewal that was started by bmi), but that's only for the longer flights operated with these aircraft (the Middle East). There are very good reasons why they don't introduce in on their whole short/medium haul fleet.

[sean1982]

I'm not saying that it would work. At that price that's what I would EXPECT. Things like PTV, WiFi (those where even available in economy, albeit paying) plush salon seats we're all there when I was flying in the states. And no it was not a widebody.

As I said, the states is a different market, well actually Europe is the big exception in this case. Altough you might expect those things for such prices, airlines are not going to pay for it for just a few pax paying for it. Even if you get great meals, a very comfortable seat, AVOD PTV's,... people are not going to pay 800 euro's for a flight to let's say Madrid. The only people that do that, are those that really have to fly and want to take a business ticket...well as I clearly stated on the previous page of this topic, these people fly anyway.

There is really no benefit for the airlines to (re-)introduce such a product. If it would work, don't you think airlines would be doing it right now? BA for example recently introduced a much higher comfort configuration on a part of their A321 fleet (a renewal that was started by bmi), but that's only for the longer flights operated with these aircraft (the Middle East). There are very good reasons why they don't introduce in on their whole short/medium haul fleet.

I hear you, but what about, like in the case of BA or KLM for example, who are really trying to attract passengers to their business or even first class on the long haul who are flying onwards onto the short haul.

Let's take for example a LAX-LHR-ATH. Now on the LH sector you get pampered with all sorts of great services, gadgets, seat etc... (like it should for that kind of money) How on earth can you justify to those customers ... and now for your "short sector" whe are going to shove you into a normal economy seat, with the same legroom, a blank wall to stare at ... but you can take 1 extra suitcase ... for 6 times the price of the person sitting 3 rows behind you. That just sounds ludicrous to me.

[RoMax]

Let's take for example a LAX-LHR-ATH. Now on the LH sector you get pampered with all sorts of great services, gadgets, seat etc... (like it should for that kind of money) How on earth can you justify to those customers ... and now for your "short sector" whe are going to shove you into a normal economy seat, with the same legroom, a blank wall to stare at ... but you can take 1 extra suitcase ... for 6 times the price of the person sitting 3 rows behind you. That just sounds ludicrous to me.

Those pax hardly pay extra for the short haul sector. It's not like when you book a 3000 Euro C-class ticket from LAX to LHR, you will pay 3800 for a LAX-LHR-ATH flight. Sometimes it's even cheaper. For example you could sometimes get cheaper tickets with SN (or AF the other way around) when booking CDG-BRU-Africa than just BRU-Africa because pricing is so important in such direct competition. Regarding baggage allowance, it's the same as on their long haul sector (the same goes for Economy pax btw).
So yes they need to be happy with a normal seat with an empty place next to them and yes their food is not as luxurious anymore as on the LH sector and yes they have to look at blank wall (wtf...), but do you really think they care that much for a flight that's hardly 2 hours long?

[sean1982]

I can only speak from my point of view, and if I would pay an amount of money like that ... then yes, I would care. (with the blank wall I meant no IFE btw, don't know what "wtf" in your answer is for?)

[RoMax]

I can only speak from my point of view, and if I would pay an amount of money like that ... then yes, I would care.

The benefit to the pax are too limited to make it worth the huge extra costs. I think the cost of a real C-class product is SERIOUSLY underestimated.

(with the blank wall I meant no IFE btw, don't know what "wtf" in your answer is for?)

Would have been easier to just say "no IFE" instead of "looking at a blank wall", I seriously did wonder what was wrong with that...

[crew1990]

I was wondering something, why SN isn't flying yet to London City airport.

LCY is in the city center and is much more comfortable for business people than LHR.

This airport only accept small aircraft and will never accept then any plane from Istanbul, Doha, Dubai or Abu Dhabi as there is no aircraft accepted in this platform wich are abble to make the length of this flight, while SN could do it with an Avro.

A business pax travelling between Africa and London would might choose SN just for this as it would be the best business product on that route.

I was thinking that SN could do one ou two flight in the morning like they do with CDG to feed the heavies and they could do as well a late flight with night stop to make that business traveler can spent the entire day in Brussels or in London without having tôspent the night overthere.

This is just a suden idea, what do you think of it?

[travellover]

Is Brussels really better placed - in such way that it could compete against the already existing hubs in AMS, FRA or PAR?

Better complete your own hub (* hub) than compete. Reasonable ambition is not daydreaming !
What else are new players like TK, EK or continental player like ET doing by stretching their wings in Africa ? The historical market of BA, AF, SN.

there is no solid base for a Belgian airline

I don't expect SN in Japan, indeed ! But NH remains the candidate to take over that part of the market in a * partnership using the 788. Next winter ? next year ? in 5 years ? Without eager, the future will tell.

Are there informations about recent ANA's evaluation of the BRU market?

[Flanker2]

I don't expect SN in Japan, indeed ! But NH remains the candidate to take over that part of the market in a * partnership with their 788. Next winter ? next year ? in 5 years ? Without eager, the future will tell.

Are there informations about recent ANA's evaluation of the BRU market ?

All I know is that NH will not invest on a BRU route if they don't have a strong partner in BRU and SN is becoming so uncertain that NH must be scratching their heads. NH can't justify a multi-million launch if SN might not be around to feed them in a few years.

For Africa, it makes progressively more sense for NH to cooperate with TK. TK's posh marketing campaigns are changing people's mind about TK. Europe is well-covered out of FRA and BRU-NRT O&D alone won't justify the waste of a B787 on a route. It can break even but not be profitable.

Better complete your own hub (* hub) than compete. Reasonable ambition is not daydreaming !
What else are new players like TK, EK or continental player like ET doing by stretching their wings in Africa ? The historical market of BA, AF, SN.

The big biiiiig problem that although this market is profitable, the traffic/demand is spread very thin.
A new player on a route can flatten the market very easily and push the weakest ones out.
SN can't strengthen their hub in BRU with a few seasonal routes when Vueling and Ryanair are coming with full force. From the winter, I expect FR to open several UK routes.
A few years ago SN were already super worried that Transavia would come with 1 or 2 planes. What is happening now is of a totally different scale...
We'll be reading a lot of stories about SN this summer/fall. They won't be good stories.


Romax, please realise that SN will be competing head-to-head with FR and Vueling. There is just no competition and they are not coming to BRU just to test the waters.
They are coming at full force.
It's a coup, not a tickle to see how SN reacts.
They must be pretty confident that they can drive SN out.

Corporations don't pay for business class when the service and product is almost the same as economy class.
In the same way, they will not pay higher SN fares when there is a cheaper Vueling or FR fare available.
In the beginning they will do it, but they will try FR/VY out and realise that it's not justified to pay higher fares for very similar products. In the same way corporations book hotels with credit cards, they will use credit cards to book Ryanair tickets and yes, SN will also loose significant corporate travel, allbeit they will keep some of the big ones. I also expect FR to introduce a billing system so that big corporations can book them and be billed.