new A319 for SN

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Conti764
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Conti764 »

MR_Boeing wrote:C-class must be possible for mid haul and even routes like Geneva.
If there is enough overall demand to warant an A321 for such flights, let's not forget it is almost the size of a B757...

Of course, for some flights SN could also fit an A320 with a dedicated C-class, but I don't know if it is wise to have some planes dedicated for a small number of routes while those planes offer so much commonality with the smaller variant A319 so switching them between routes on a day to day basis, depending on bookings and average load factors, is a great option. It is better to have those planes as Y-class only and block the middle seat for C-class passengers.

The same matters for the A321 with dedicated C-class, but a Y-class only A321 seems a bit over the top for the majority of SN's short to midhaul flights.

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RoMax
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by RoMax »

Yes indeed, a A321 is maybe to big for GVA and other short haul routes of SN. Tel Aviv and Moscow must be possible, and maybe future new destinations in the middle east for SN.

HighInTheSky
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by HighInTheSky »

MR_Boeing wrote:Yes indeed, a A321 is maybe to big for GVA and other short haul routes of SN. Tel Aviv and Moscow must be possible, and maybe future new destinations in the middle east for SN.
And in the summer you can add to those routes that can sustain a A321: Malaga, Palermo, Palma, Catania,...

I don't think we will see a A321 soon in SN colours, but I think the first A320 can be expected as soon as the B734's are being fased out.

Dedicated C class isn't flexible enough for OPS, but let's do it like Sabena, and install a system that can adjust the seats to a 2-3 configuration in C class...

SSG, SSK and SSM still have it.

Now i wonder in wich configuration the extra A319 is...

TUB023

Re: new A319 for SN

Post by TUB023 »

the seats in the A319 will also be replaced with new, leight weight seats.

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euroflyer
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by euroflyer »

TUB023 wrote:the seats in the A319 will also be replaced with new, leight weight seats.
Probably like LH has them in their A319/20/21? They do not do the 2-3 configuration anymore (like about 10 yrs ago), but they keep the middle seat in c-class free and move the armrests ofthe two outer seats 2 or 3 cm each towards the middle and fold a part of the backrest of the middle seat down to become a tray for the c-class pax.

I think SN will be careful to add A320/21s to the fleet. As far as I am aware will each new type (even if they are quite similar with the A319) require pilots to be certified for them (correct?) and thereful will mean less operational flexibility. To have such a small short-haul fleet with so many different types makes it much more difficult to shift crews around.
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tolipanebas
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by tolipanebas »

euroflyer wrote:I think SN will be careful to add A320/21s to the fleet. As far as I am aware will each new type (even if they are quite similar with the A319) require pilots to be certified for them (correct?) and thereful will mean less operational flexibility. To have such a small short-haul fleet with so many different types makes it much more difficult to shift crews around.
No, the A320 is exactly the same type rating as for the A319, just as the RJ100 and RJ85, so there's no extra cost from a crew perspective.

However, I fear the A320 is going to be too big for SN's network, whereas he A319 is more tailer-made for them, so the focus for their mid-sized European fleet is likely going to remain on the 132-seated A319.

One should remember the 737-400 is also proving too big for SN right now, other than on the ex-VEX summer destinations (AGP etc), so I don't think the priority is on A320s right now...

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

tolipanebas wrote:
euroflyer wrote:I think SN will be careful to add A320/21s to the fleet. As far as I am aware will each new type (even if they are quite similar with the A319) require pilots to be certified for them (correct?) and thereful will mean less operational flexibility. To have such a small short-haul fleet with so many different types makes it much more difficult to shift crews around.
No, the A320 is exactly the same type rating as for the A319, just as the RJ100 and RJ85, so there's no extra cost from a crew perspective.

However, I fear the A320 is going to be too big for SN's network, whereas he A319 is more tailer-made for them, so the focus for their mid-sized European fleet is likely going to remain on the 132-seated A319.

One should remember the 737-400 is also proving too big for SN right now, other than on the ex-VEX summer destinations (AGP etc), so I don't think the priority is on A320s right now...
Seems that the Airbus A319 could become the backbone of the SN fleet for european ops ... indeed...
And what about an eventual opportunity for the Airbus A318 to enter the fleet?

Crosswind
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Crosswind »

By the way, has someone an idea about the kind of european operations we could do in the future? I mean: reduced capacities or not (in comparing with today), Long/medium/short haul ratio...? These are very important questions 'cause everything depends on what Lufthansa wants to make us...

So there is the question ... What do they want?

Crosswind
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Crosswind »

brusselsairlinesfan wrote:
tolipanebas wrote:
euroflyer wrote:I think SN will be careful to add A320/21s to the fleet. As far as I am aware will each new type (even if they are quite similar with the A319) require pilots to be certified for them (correct?) and thereful will mean less operational flexibility. To have such a small short-haul fleet with so many different types makes it much more difficult to shift crews around.
No, the A320 is exactly the same type rating as for the A319, just as the RJ100 and RJ85, so there's no extra cost from a crew perspective.

However, I fear the A320 is going to be too big for SN's network, whereas he A319 is more tailer-made for them, so the focus for their mid-sized European fleet is likely going to remain on the 132-seated A319.

One should remember the 737-400 is also proving too big for SN right now, other than on the ex-VEX summer destinations (AGP etc), so I don't think the priority is on A320s right now...
Seems that the Airbus A319 could become the backbone of the SN fleet for european ops ... indeed...
And what about an eventual opportunity for the Airbus A318 to enter the fleet?
Yes, indeed, and that could be THE good news, regarding the social stability of the company. Everybody on Airbus, that solves a lot of bidding problems :D

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Conti764
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Conti764 »

tolipanebas wrote: No, the A320 is exactly the same type rating as for the A319, just as the RJ100 and RJ85, so there's no extra cost from a crew perspective.

However, I fear the A320 is going to be too big for SN's network, whereas he A319 is more tailer-made for them, so the focus for their mid-sized European fleet is likely going to remain on the 132-seated A319.

One should remember the 737-400 is also proving too big for SN right now, other than on the ex-VEX summer destinations (AGP etc), so I don't think the priority is on A320s right now...
For the time being, I agree, but isn't SN supposed to streamline their ops with the Star Alliance partners so flying less flights on their own metal with probably more pax per flight?

You probably know better than me, but aren't there at least a few routes that can have a bigger plane year round, maybe even with a dedicated C-class?

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Conti764
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Conti764 »

brusselsairlinesfan wrote: And what about an eventual opportunity for the Airbus A318 to enter the fleet?
I don't think so. If they need a plane with the capacity of the A318 it probably will be a regional jet. The A318 seems to be(come) a niche plane.

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tolipanebas
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by tolipanebas »

Conti764 wrote:For the time being, I agree, but isn't SN supposed to streamline their ops with the Star Alliance partners so flying less flights on their own metal with probably more pax per flight?
I am confused now.
Why would SN want to offer less frequencies with more capacity on its destinations?
That's a business model for a low-fare airline, not for a network carrier offering connections and alternatives.
I'd image the focus is on offering more frequencies on existing routes, albeit with reduced capacity (e.g. BRS and NCL) or identical capacity, if load factors can be maintained (e.g. CPH, TXL).
Conti764 wrote: You probably know better than me, but aren't there at least a few routes that can have a bigger plane year round, maybe even with a dedicated C-class?
Well TLV might do with a bigger plane, but other than that, I don't know if there's any route which is currently being underserved really. There are destinations which have good loads from time to time, but if you take A320s over A319s, you need to be damn sure you'll be filling those extra seats at least half the time (or more), otherwise you better don't bother.

Pesonally, I am not convinced that's the case right now, but who knows, maybe in a couple of years, SN might operate 2 or 3 A320s amid a 10 to 15 planes strong airbus narrowbody fleet? Right now however, I think the capacity jump is too big to go straight for an A320...

As to dedicated C class on narrowbodies: who does that within the LH group of airlines on medium haul flights in Europe? I know OS has some narrowbodied Airbussses configured for C class, but they use them on flights to the middle east, so those are not European destinations they serve with them. But other than that, I don't know of any airline doing that, so I fail to see why SN would do it? A free middle seat seems to be the industry standard in Europe for business class cabins these days, like it or not. :cry:

cnc
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by cnc »

tolipanebas wrote:A free middle seat seems to be the industry standard in Europe for business class cabins these days, like it or not. :cry:
what about legroom? will they give the first rows a bit more space or not?

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RoMax
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by RoMax »

I just found a picture of one of the BAe 146-200's of SN. I remember me someone on this forum that said that two of them were sold and for the moment in maintenance. The picture I found is of OO-DJH in Bacau Romania (on 18 january) without SN titles. He is there for Aerostar Bacau for maintenance work.

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=909691

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Conti764
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Conti764 »

tolipanebas wrote:
I am confused now.
Why would SN want to offer less frequencies with more capacity on its destinations?
That's a business model for a low-fare airline, not for a network carrier offering connections and alternatives.
I'd image the focus is on offering more frequencies on existing routes, albeit with reduced capacity (e.g. BRS and NCL) or identical capacity, if load factors can be maintained (e.g. CPH, TXL).
Sorry for my late reply... I mean SN can offer les frequencies on their own metal by codesharing with their Star Alliance partners within Europe. This way they can look to open up more routes (if possible) and they can have the same amount or even more frequencies to excisting operations.

SN would feed into their partners flights, but it also goes the other way around with partner airlines feeding into SN's flights, thus creating a possibility to have bigger planes operating certain routes.

Of course, al this is theory, if it can be done by SN has to be seen in real life.

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Lyulka
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Lyulka »

MR_Boeing wrote:The picture I found is of OO-DJH in Bacau Romania
Not sure, but I believe plane is expected to come back to Belgium after maintenance and get the new registration, before leaving for good. I believe it's heading for the Kyrgyz Republic. Can somebody confirm?
If it is correct, I wonder if it will also be part of the "blanked-ban" on Kyrgyz aircraft by the EU.

TUB023

Re: new A319 for SN

Post by TUB023 »

i confirm. DJH left the hangar a few days ago and is now @ bachau for a C-check to then return and leave the fleet for good. another 146 will follow after that for turkye

also got word that there's a rumour about a 2nd a319 (so 2 to join except 1... but that's just rumours, i can't confirm)

HighInTheSky
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by HighInTheSky »

TUB023 wrote:
also got word that there's a rumour about a 2nd a319 (so 2 to join except 1... but that's just rumours, i can't confirm)
A very strong rumour... Should/can/will/is expected to enter the SN fleet in August 2010...

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Conti764
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Re: new A319 for SN

Post by Conti764 »

HighInTheSky wrote:
TUB023 wrote:
also got word that there's a rumour about a 2nd a319 (so 2 to join except 1... but that's just rumours, i can't confirm)
A very strong rumour... Should/can/will/is expected to enter the SN fleet in August 2010...
Will the just keep the same rate of phasing out 737's or are they going to remove an extra 737 if this rumor is true.

TUB023

Re: new A319 for SN

Post by TUB023 »

In total there are 3 737's moving out

OO-LTM is joining african project
OO-VEJ is end of the contract
and a 3rd one, don't know anymore, is also the end of it.

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