JAF fleet expansion ?

JAFflyer · Post by **JAFflyer** » 22 May 2007, 11:49

all I can say further, of course I don't force people to believe it, just make your own rumours, I provide facts, ... is that Brusselsairlines has the same problem with their A330, so it's not just JAF. And if you refer to the new 747's at TNT, a brandnew aircraft is much less paperwork than a used one.
So Darjeeling is 100% right in his statement.

Enough said from my side.

EBAW_flyer · Post by **EBAW_flyer** » 22 May 2007, 11:53

And if you refer to the new 747's at TNT, a brandnew aircraft is much less paperwork than a used one.

TNT has added 5 737-300's since july '06 and indeed 2 brand new 747's.
But that's not the point. The BCAA just wanted to investigate if the lease of these aircraft was justified under current conditions.

Skystef · Post by **Skystef** » 22 May 2007, 22:57

Besides the OO-SFW Airbus, also interesting news was the fact that OO-JAT did perform a local test flight on May 22. Although I didn't see it, I presume had the f/c.

Up till now, 33 different foreign airframes were used in May. Spotters will miss them

avi8tor · Post by **avi8tor** » 23 May 2007, 10:16

Come on JAF-people, just face it: you simply don't have the people to fly those extra aircraft. Don't blame it on BCAA!! When I see you passing by, it breaks my heart. You're all knackered and at the virge of a breakdown... and the REAL summer-rush hasn't even started yet!!!
Or is the fact that 28 (!) people called in sick on the same day just because they were predicting good weather?? I don't think so, cause the weather was TERRIBLE that day. That must tell you something...

avi8tor

Fly'em

JAFflyer · Post by **JAFflyer** » 23 May 2007, 10:19

Test flight was succesful, so JAT will fly most probably on Thursday.
On the other comment I'm not responding anymore as everybody knows better.

spotter1102 · Post by **spotter1102** » 23 May 2007, 10:51

JAFflyer wrote:Test flight was succesful, so JAT will fly most probably on Thursday.
On the other comment I'm not responding anymore as everybody knows better.

Without the Jetairfly livery ?

JAFflyer · Post by **JAFflyer** » 23 May 2007, 11:15

Yup, still in "Yellow cab" livery.

spotter1102 · Post by **spotter1102** » 23 May 2007, 11:18

JAFflyer wrote:Yup, still in "Yellow cab" livery.

OK thanks

avi8tor · Post by **avi8tor** » 23 May 2007, 13:01

Wow, nice for the spotters: OO-JAT flying in hybrid-colours!
Probably they didn't want to spend anymore € repainting the a/c after their financial hemorrhage caused by hundreds of sub-charters these past 2 months.
SORRY JAFflyer, nothing personal... just hate their management-style, that's all!
Though, nice to notice few people are still loyal to them... unless you're "one of them".

avi8tor

Fly'em

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 23 May 2007, 17:35

avi8tor wrote:
Probably they didn't want to spend anymore € repainting the a/c after their financial hemorrhage caused by hundreds of sub-charters these past 2 months.

Most of the subcharters were extra flights, booked after the allotment (that was booked last year) was sold out. Sales TUI (= the touroperator) has worked indeed very good during the first months, and TUI then is going for it. They negiocate last minute rates with hotels and they ask JAF if - and at at what p/p price - they can transport the pax. Some hours later, the new allotment is on the net - and is advised to the travel trade. Believe me: every additional plane, even a subcharter, is champagne in Ostend and Mechelen.

The only price setting problem could raise if scheduled flights have to be flown with subcharters. But then there is the "fuel surcharge" joker that can be used.

avi8tor wrote:
Though, nice to notice few people are still loyal to them... unless you're "one of them".

Only very few JAF-people are not loyal to them anymore. Could be you're "one of them".

snowbird · Post by **snowbird** » 23 May 2007, 21:54

@LX-LGX

I don't know you are in the airline business. But I can tell you that when you subcharter, it cost the airline more money than the turnover on that specific flight.
Due to the fact that there is scarce capacity on the market, the subcharte rprices are high. Rates 3000 euro per blockhour is common nowadays for b737. If you have trouble on the day itself, you pay even more.
Besides that, JAF still has to pay the variable costs of the subcartered flight, and the ferry flight to and from BRU has also to be paid by JAF. I can not imagine, that the packagedeals that are sold by TUI, are so profitable, that they balance the cost of a subchartered flight.

I think you miss the point. Every financial controller in an airline (or in an vertical integrated airline/touroperaror) hates seeing that flights are subchartered. They don't bring cash-in, only cash-out.

rgds

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 23 May 2007, 22:41

snowbird wrote: But I can tell you that when you subcharter, it cost the airline more money than the turnover on that specific flight.

Seems you don't understand how price setting within the TUI-Group is done. Your statement that a subcharter costs more then it's turnover assumes that it's not TUI who decides the turnover of that flight. They don't control the cost of the flight, but they set the tour price so they control the revenue.

When it's an additional allotment with subchartered flights, price calculation of the final tour price is done, based on that higher plane price. Off course the revenue on that flight would be higher if it's with an own JAF, but so what? If 175 pax makes them earn 17.500 euro's, they're not going to mourne that it should have been 35.000. No: they're then opening a bottle of champagne.

JAF 23 · Post by **JAF 23** » 24 May 2007, 09:30

That's crap

You should go to the Tui village in Zaventem or the Jetair building in Ostend to explain your theory, tehy would love to hear it, because there they aren't opening bottles of champagne, but adding numbers to see how much money there is left. Subcharters cost money, more then you earn with that flight, be sure.

Greetz

JAFflyer · Post by **JAFflyer** » 24 May 2007, 12:55

LX-LGX is correct by his statements.
And to the others, no I'm not "one of them" as you so kindly refer to the management, just an emplyee who likes his job.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 25 May 2007, 21:22

Steven van der Heijden is CEO TUI Holland, and he will also be Arkefly's new director as from 01st August 2007. According to an interview he gave to luchtvaartnieuws.nl, operations from Arkefly (NL) and Jetairfly (B) will be integrated in the near future.

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=20351

This article/interview is only available in Dutch, therefore the translation of the relevant quote: COO at Arkefly relains Jurrien Assendorp. Van der Heyden will have to implement the operational integration from Arkefly with it's Belgian sister company Jetairfly.

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 25 May 2007, 22:57

First commercial flight of the OO-JAT is planned for tomorrow!

Regards

snowbird · Post by **snowbird** » 26 May 2007, 20:13

I just understood that in the beginning of this year it was decided that TFL and JAF will not be integrated.
Crewplanning for JAF was partly done by the TFL office and employees, but after it was decided not to integrate, this part of crewplanning returned to Belgium.
So I am curious what has changed in the last few months.
Moreover, why did mr. Jan heppener leave after 16 months? Was the job done or had TUI germany too much infuence and was TFL not that independant as he wished???? Or ..... who knows....

Spotter 22 · Post by **Spotter 22** » 28 May 2007, 03:49

LX-LGX wrote: Believe me: every additional plane, even a subcharter, is champagne in Ostend and Mechelen.

jetairfly-is-going-to-lease-an-a320-t21637.html

So I guess even more Champagne in Ostend and Mechelen?....

I guess the boxes of champagne are piling up....

Dude320 · Post by **Dude320** » 28 May 2007, 10:58

I didn t know there was a champagne house in Ostend...

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 28 May 2007, 11:14

Spotter 22 wrote:
LX-LGX wrote: Believe me: every additional plane, even a subcharter, is champagne in Ostend and Mechelen.
jetairfly-is-going-to-lease-an-a320-t21637.html

So I guess even more Champagne in Ostend and Mechelen?....
I guess the boxes of champagne are piling up....

I know this is an airline forum,and not a travel forum. However, it's pity that some don't have the necessary minimum knowledge of the travel trade to understand how price setting is done there.

If TUI hires an extra plane, they don't do it to loose money: they do it because they've managed to sell even more packages as planned. TUI doens't control the cost of the extra flights, but TUI decides on the final package price, so they control the revenue of each flight. Repeat: there's a difference between cost and revenue. A higher cost of a flight means a more expensive package, and this means same revenue at the end of the journey.

When it's an additional allotment with subchartered flights, price calculation of the final tour price is done, based on that higher plane price. TUI Production asks JAF if they can transport a series of additional pax, and at what p/p price they can do so. JAF then advises TUI Production that an extra allotment to ... would cost ... p/p at 100% occupancy, including all extra costs. TUI Production then calculates the tour price, and TUI Sales then comes into action. That's the system that Gerard, Bart and Annemie Brackx have set up years ago. And if you compare the annual results from TUI Belgium with the other TUI branches, I can assure you that the system works.

Like I said before (but seems you didn't understand it): off course the revenue on that extra flight would be higher if it's flown with an own JAF, but so what? If 175 pax makes you earn 17.500 euro's, you're not going to mourne that it should have been 35.000.

TUI is only loosing money if, f.e., their own 767 has broken down and they have to subcharter an Islandsflug Tristar.