Brussels Airlines in 2024

[Boeing767copilot]

The Pope will visit Belgium from Thursday evening, September 26, to Sunday afternoon, September 29. He will arrive on an ITA Airways flight and return to Rome with Brussels Airlines.

[lumumba]

No Tel aviv till mid October.

[sn26567]

The Pope will visit Belgium from Thursday evening, September 26, to Sunday afternoon, September 29. He will arrive on an ITA Airways flight and return to Rome with Brussels Airlines.

I knew he would fly ITA from FCO to LUX, but will he continue on the same plane from LUX to BRU?

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ita- ... september/

[brabel]

I heard he would arrive and leave from Melsbroek...?

[JOVAN2]

Last saturday there was an interview with CS -CEO of LH Group in De Tijd.
Usual complaints about EU allowing access to European market too esaily.
The Middle East and Chinese suck away customers with cheap prices and big government support, while EU Commission gives fines, issues very difficult regulations for European airlines. He is right about this, but the European airlines should maybe do more to defend their interest (idem for farmer, car-industry, etc...)

About SN it is the same story as always: not enough this (benefits,..), too much that (strikes, social unrest...).
He forgets that he is CEO since 2008 so he has the mandate and the power to change things for the better.
Strikes are not the monopoly of SN, the whole LH Group suffers from it.

Since 2008 the LH Group and Mr. CS have been in charge of SN, and decide de-facto about everything there.
The main activity at SN and in BRU was to drain PAX away and re-structure again and again so as to make SN a cheap company with very old fleet.
He even wanted to integrate SN into Eurowings.
SN has always been (since 2008) a malnourished child for LH.
No surprise results remain poor and SN remains small and fragile.
It also makes BRU a mini-mini hub with few destinations , few connections with European business centers.

LH Group had so many chances and so much time to make and take market share from AF-KLM with CDG and AMS.

Look how quickly AF-KLM is integrating SAS and CPH as a real member of their growth strategy.
New destinations, in EU and USA. New programms, positive news. (see luchtvaartnieuws, simply flying, aviation 24 and general press and media).
A real collaboration..
The French and Dutch must be amused to see the missed chances and lost opportunities which are a result of German stubborness.

[oldblueeyes]

That you don't like LH - your private choice.

The fact that you are not even double checking things you claim by googling 30 seconds. Well - your personal limitation.

If you want like-for-like comparisons, wait 3-4 years and check SAS vs ITA - scope, role, changes are similar.

And stop writing bullshit: SN was a minority participation until 2014, unlikely as in the ITA case LH didn't had the management control (lesson learned). Gustin as CEO was several times against LH planning, that's why you see today so many A319 flying instead of A223 (C-100,C-300 fleet was the LH plan).

Adn yes, LH didn't developed SN, because it as their interest not to spend money twice : once in investing and than paying a higher price to take over the majority. They left this to the majority owners and well - the result was not bad for LH - 28 Mio EUR enterprise value for 55% of the shares.

And by the way, as LH made the 2008 deal CH was CEO of LH Cargo, had nothing to do with passanger airlines, where he moved in 2011.

And yes, Brussels is a kind of Eurowings plus niche long haul, but is that bad? Since Eurowings gave experiments up and focus on short haul P2P they earn money.

[Atlantis]

Last saturday there was an interview with CS -CEO of LH Group in De Tijd.
Usual complaints about EU allowing access to European market too esaily.
The Middle East and Chinese suck away customers with cheap prices and big government support, while EU Commission gives fines, issues very difficult regulations for European airlines. He is right about this, but the European airlines should maybe do more to defend their interest (idem for farmer, car-industry, etc...)

About SN it is the same story as always: not enough this (benefits,..), too much that (strikes, social unrest...).
He forgets that he is CEO since 2008 so he has the mandate and the power to change things for the better.
Strikes are not the monopoly of SN, the whole LH Group suffers from it.

Since 2008 the LH Group and Mr. CS have been in charge of SN, and decide de-facto about everything there.
The main activity at SN and in BRU was to drain PAX away and re-structure again and again so as to make SN a cheap company with very old fleet.
He even wanted to integrate SN into Eurowings.
SN has always been (since 2008) a malnourished child for LH.
No surprise results remain poor and SN remains small and fragile.
It also makes BRU a mini-mini hub with few destinations , few connections with European business centers.

LH Group had so many chances and so much time to make and take market share from AF-KLM with CDG and AMS.

Look how quickly AF-KLM is integrating SAS and CPH as a real member of their growth strategy.
New destinations, in EU and USA. New programms, positive news. (see luchtvaartnieuws, simply flying, aviation 24 and general press and media).
A real collaboration..
The French and Dutch must be amused to see the missed chances and lost opportunities which are a result of German stubborness.

AF/Klm is doing the same with SAS as LH is doing. Their partner DL let SAS flying to their hubs in Atlanta and Seattle so that DL can transport further their pax. They do the same, nothing new

[JOVAN2]

That you don't like LH - your private choice.

The fact that you are not even double checking things you claim by googling 30 seconds. Well - your personal limitation.

If you want like-for-like comparisons, wait 3-4 years and check SAS vs ITA - scope, role, changes are similar.

And stop writing bullshit: SN was a minority participation until 2014, unlikely as in the ITA case LH didn't had the management control (lesson learned). Gustin as CEO was several times against LH planning, that's why you see today so many A319 flying instead of A223 (C-100,C-300 fleet was the LH plan).

Adn yes, LH didn't developed SN, because it as their interest not to spend money twice : once in investing and than paying a higher price to take over the majority. They left this to the majority owners and well - the result was not bad for LH - 28 Mio EUR enterprise value for 55% of the shares.

And by the way, as LH made the 2008 deal CH was CEO of LH Cargo, had nothing to do with passanger airlines, where he moved in 2011.

And yes, Brussels is a kind of Eurowings plus niche long haul, but is that bad? Since Eurowings gave experiments up and focus on short haul P2P they earn money.

You often use the word "BULLSHIT" for somebody else's opinion.
That shows your limitation.

The point I make is that after so many years , LH has not been able to make their investment in SN work. They had full control since 2008 or 2014 if you want. Even in 10 years their management-performance to make SN work is very poor. They have hardly invested anything, except in the last year.

In comparison, AF-KL is fast and efficient to integrate SAS in their alliance.
Streamlining and going for growth is what they do.
Not a continuous change of CEO's, re-structuring plans, ..always putting SN against the wall.

LH is a good company, but their handling of SN (even trying to integrate SN in Eurowing and doing everything to clip their wings..) is not professional and not effective.

We will not have to wait 4 years to see SAS flourishing in the Skyteam.

[Atlantis]

That you don't like LH - your private choice.

The fact that you are not even double checking things you claim by googling 30 seconds. Well - your personal limitation.

If you want like-for-like comparisons, wait 3-4 years and check SAS vs ITA - scope, role, changes are similar.

And stop writing bullshit: SN was a minority participation until 2014, unlikely as in the ITA case LH didn't had the management control (lesson learned). Gustin as CEO was several times against LH planning, that's why you see today so many A319 flying instead of A223 (C-100,C-300 fleet was the LH plan).

Adn yes, LH didn't developed SN, because it as their interest not to spend money twice : once in investing and than paying a higher price to take over the majority. They left this to the majority owners and well - the result was not bad for LH - 28 Mio EUR enterprise value for 55% of the shares.

And by the way, as LH made the 2008 deal CH was CEO of LH Cargo, had nothing to do with passanger airlines, where he moved in 2011.

And yes, Brussels is a kind of Eurowings plus niche long haul, but is that bad? Since Eurowings gave experiments up and focus on short haul P2P they earn money.

You often use the word "BULLSHIT" for somebody else's opinion.
That shows your limitation.

The point I make is that after so many years , LH has not been able to make their investment in SN work. They had full control since 2008 or 2014 if you want. Even in 10 years their management-performance to make SN work is very poor. They have hardly invested anything, except in the last year.

In comparison, AF-KL is fast and efficient to integrate SAS in their alliance.
Streamlining and going for growth is what they do.
Not a continuous change of CEO's, re-structuring plans, ..always putting SN against the wall.

LH is a good company, but their handling of SN (even trying to integrate SN in Eurowing and doing everything to clip their wings..) is not professional and not effective.

We will not have to wait 4 years to see SAS flourishing in the Skyteam.

But do you really belief it only depends on the one who bought it? Look around at the aviation in general in Belgium. TUI scaled down, Thomas Cook bankrupt, VLM gone, Air Belgium almost gone. A lot depends also on your O&D market. Belgians are not adventures like Dutch ones or others, even in pure business. Everything is more close under the church tower. How you can imagine a home carrier is doing? They fly where is the demand. You need to accept the reality

[Boeing767copilot]

The way in which Transavia has captured a considerable share of the Belgian market in a very short time is a lack of vision, courage and foresight from home carrier Brussels Airlines and the main leisure airline TUI fly.

[Atlantis]

The way in which Transavia has captured a considerable share of the Belgian market in a very short time is a lack of vision, courage and foresight from home carrier Brussels Airlines and the main leisure airline TUI fly.

Correct and so does Corendon.

But those are leisure destinations. TUI really scaled down if you compare with the past. What is the reason? Lack of aircraft? If you see that Transavia has 3 based aircraft and Corendon one I believe. TUI could have requested the group to have 4 extra planes for the Belgian market but they didn't.
About SN, they fly already to a lot of leisure destinations and will do it even more during Winter

[oldblueeyes]

The way in which Transavia has captured a considerable share of the Belgian market in a very short time is a lack of vision, courage and foresight from home carrier Brussels Airlines and the main leisure airline TUI fly.

You can allocate one available aircraft only once.
And if another brand comes with a better profit statement, it gets the aircraft.

You can even wetlease, so it's not like only own aircraft are eligible.

But ultimately it comes down to what you want to be - either a P2P base flying maximum efficiency local demand, or a Mini- Hub prioritising spokes that ensure you filling your long haul.

At the size of SN you can't do everything with critical mass.

And some leisure destinations , even if popular, you may choose deliberately not to serve.

There is a strategy even the sustainable growth rate is communicated.

But other bases may have sexier bid proposals for allocation - so ask better why you can beat them.

[rwandan-flyer]

That you don't like LH - your private choice.

The fact that you are not even double checking things you claim by googling 30 seconds. Well - your personal limitation.

If you want like-for-like comparisons, wait 3-4 years and check SAS vs ITA - scope, role, changes are similar.

And stop writing bullshit: SN was a minority participation until 2014, unlikely as in the ITA case LH didn't had the management control (lesson learned). Gustin as CEO was several times against LH planning, that's why you see today so many A319 flying instead of A223 (C-100,C-300 fleet was the LH plan).

Adn yes, LH didn't developed SN, because it as their interest not to spend money twice : once in investing and than paying a higher price to take over the majority. They left this to the majority owners and well - the result was not bad for LH - 28 Mio EUR enterprise value for 55% of the shares.

And by the way, as LH made the 2008 deal CH was CEO of LH Cargo, had nothing to do with passanger airlines, where he moved in 2011.

And yes, Brussels is a kind of Eurowings plus niche long haul, but is that bad? Since Eurowings gave experiments up and focus on short haul P2P they earn money.

You often use the word "BULLSHIT" for somebody else's opinion.
That shows your limitation.

The point I make is that after so many years , LH has not been able to make their investment in SN work. They had full control since 2008 or 2014 if you want. Even in 10 years their management-performance to make SN work is very poor. They have hardly invested anything, except in the last year.

In comparison, AF-KL is fast and efficient to integrate SAS in their alliance.
Streamlining and going for growth is what they do.
Not a continuous change of CEO's, re-structuring plans, ..always putting SN against the wall.

LH is a good company, but their handling of SN (even trying to integrate SN in Eurowing and doing everything to clip their wings..) is not professional and not effective.

We will not have to wait 4 years to see SAS flourishing in the Skyteam.

SAS filed into chapt11 in 2022. They closed some routes and reduced their fleet from 158 aircraft to 134. I include subsidiaries aircraft. But if we exclude subsidiaries aircraft. 131 aircraft in 2020, 75 in 2024. They emerged from bankruptcy last month.

SAS won't open dozens routes in Asia, North America or in Africa or will 10 A350s in the next 5 years. They will be used only to feed Air France KLM flights with the Nordic market ( a high yield market) and to to expand the hub of Copenhagen by tapping into the North America Europe market with the opening of new routes in Europe and in United States but probably mainly SkyTeam hub. Boston, New York and Los Angeles are already served by SAS. Atlanta and Seattle (served in the past) are new destinations. It remains Detroit and Minneapolis if we talk about SkyTeam hubs in USA.

SkyTeam has enough airlines to cover Africa (Air France, KLM, Kenya Airways) and in Asia (Korean Air, Xiamen Air, Air France, KLM, China Eastern)

[Boeing767copilot]

The way in which Transavia has captured a considerable share of the Belgian market in a very short time is a lack of vision, courage and foresight from home carrier Brussels Airlines and the main leisure airline TUI fly.

Correct and so does Corendon.

But those are leisure destinations. TUI really scaled down if you compare with the past. What is the reason? Lack of aircraft? If you see that Transavia has 3 based aircraft and Corendon one I believe. TUI could have requested the group to have 4 extra planes for the Belgian market but they didn't.
About SN, they fly already to a lot of leisure destinations and will do it even more during Winter

For TUI fly it seems very clear to me: the TUI Group prefers to sell more package holidays. And therefore TUI Belgium is now obliged to reduce the seat only capacity. The same applies to the reduction of VFR destinations in the TUI fly Belgium network.

[lumumba]

The way in which Transavia has captured a considerable share of the Belgian market in a very short time is a lack of vision, courage and foresight from home carrier Brussels Airlines and the main leisure airline TUI fly.

Exactly that's so true about Faro in my experience everybody today is flying Transavia to Faro around me this was a big gap.
I think Portugal in general is under served there is also a market for the Brussels hub from Faro I don't think it's big but it exist and it was never used properly also Porto is under served this plane is alway full to go to Luanda I often fly BRU LIS OPO LAD to catch the day flight.

[Lux_avi]

The way in which Transavia has captured a considerable share of the Belgian market in a very short time is a lack of vision, courage and foresight from home carrier Brussels Airlines and the main leisure airline TUI fly.

Correct and so does Corendon.

But those are leisure destinations. TUI really scaled down if you compare with the past. What is the reason? Lack of aircraft? If you see that Transavia has 3 based aircraft and Corendon one I believe. TUI could have requested the group to have 4 extra planes for the Belgian market but they didn't.
About SN, they fly already to a lot of leisure destinations and will do it even more during Winter

TUI is a tour operator, TUIfly is there to fly their passengers to their package holiday destinations. Before Covid, the numerous TUI AOC’s could manage their airlines with more freedom than nowadays. Don’t say TUIfly BE hasn’t asked for more aircraft or to keep their capacity, you just don’t know.

[lumumba]

The way in which Transavia has captured a considerable share of the Belgian market in a very short time is a lack of vision, courage and foresight from home carrier Brussels Airlines and the main leisure airline TUI fly.

Correct and so does Corendon.

But those are leisure destinations. TUI really scaled down if you compare with the past. What is the reason? Lack of aircraft? If you see that Transavia has 3 based aircraft and Corendon one I believe. TUI could have requested the group to have 4 extra planes for the Belgian market but they didn't.
About SN, they fly already to a lot of leisure destinations and will do it even more during Winter

TUI is a tour operator, TUIfly is there to fly their passengers to their package holiday destinations. Before Covid, the numerous TUI AOC’s could manage their airlines with more freedom than nowadays. Don’t say TUIfly BE hasn’t asked for more aircraft or to keep their capacity, you just don’t know.

It doesn't matter where the fault comes from, but there is still an opportunity that was not taken here.

[Lux_avi]

It doesn't matter where the fault comes from, but there is still an opportunity that was not taken here.

What opportunity?
At which cost?
Is the route profitable for Transavia?

Tuifly decided to go for a « reasonable » fleet to limit the financial risk in case of a crisis. Whether it is a mistake or not is another discussion.

Don’t forget Transavia doesn’t employ flying crew in Belgium. The costs are not the same than for SN or TUI…

[oldblueeyes]

Forum logic :

- i like to fly " there"
- xyz is not flying anymore thus huge opportunity
- if not captured by SN =》 Lack of Vision

Why do companies give routes away? Because of economics.

SN's Job is not to serve any destination in the world. It has to make money in the slot allocated in the whole group.

And with ongoing European consolidation, other brands of group , either current or future, would ask for their share as well.

[Matt]

Forum logic :

- i like to fly " there"
- xyz is not flying anymore thus huge opportunity
- if not captured by SN =》 Lack of Vision

+1 , very well phrased

May I remind some people that an airline with "the right vision" is on the verge of Bankruptcy right now? Trying to tap into markets that just are plain dangerous? (pun intended)

(Air Belgium with JNB flights cough cough)