Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[crew1990]

We have to look at the fleet not as a single business unit but at the whole group level. At the moment there are 43 A330-300’s in the group, amongs them 32 still between 9 and 18 years old. With Lufthansa and probably soon Swiss getting rid of them, it is to be expected that Discover and Brussels will share those bunch of 32 aircrafts in the mid term before switching most probably to A350’s or 787.

For some member this can be frustrating to have to wait so long to have shiny brand new aircraft and as a av-geek, I fully understand it, but in the other hand, this is a great opportunity for Brussels Airlines, Brussels Airport and Belgium to grow sustainably in the following years to come, expanding the portofolio of destinations and frequencies. And no worry fleet renewal will come at some point, no worry for that.

[lumumba]

We have to look at the fleet not as a single business unit but at the whole group level. At the moment there are 43 A330-300’s in the group, amongs them 32 still between 9 and 18 years old. With Lufthansa and probably soon Swiss getting rid of them, it is to be expected that Discover and Brussels will share those bunch of 32 aircrafts in the mid term before switching most probably to A350’s or 787.

For some member this can be frustrating to have to wait so long to have shiny brand new aircraft and as a av-geek, I fully understand it, but in the other hand, this is a great opportunity for Brussels Airlines, Brussels Airport and Belgium to grow sustainably in the following years to come, expanding the portofolio of destinations and frequencies. And no worry fleet renewal will come at some point, no worry for that.

From a passengers point of view at least that's my opinion the 330 is much more comfortable than the A350(I need to take the 787 in account)at least in Economy so keep them

[lumumba]

No need to take the 787 in account very uncomfortable plane in Economy!

[oldblueeyes]

A mix of A321LR with 339(if possible second hand)could be a good option?
It's still one long haul type,the 321 is from the 320 family.

Right about leasing, but SN must break away from short-term strategies. Operating second-hand aircraft over 10 years old leads to higher maintenance costs, more frequent C-checks, and premature fleet renewal cycles.

A modern, uniform fleet built on a 20-year lifecycle is essential. Whether A350, A330neo, 787 or another type, the focus must be on consistency, reliability, and long-term operational planning.

Leasing is acceptable if it involves new or nearly new aircraft, ideally less than 5 years old.
Aging planes acquired for cost-saving purposes no longer align with market expectations or competitive standards...

Do you have any industry standards supporting your data or is it just "free opinion" based on nothing?

Becasue sorry, you're writing complete nonsense - you have totally no clue about the operating standards in aviation.

You need to take into account full cost: ownership, maintenance,fuel, product availability.

On top of this, you need to take into account cash flows - the brutal fact is that with it's todays operating profitability, SN can not afford to finance brand new long haul aircraft.

Aircraft below 5 years old? Yeah - ever heard about typical lease cycles of 10,12 and 16 years for long haul aircraft and the sweet spot for lessors to close transations? You won't get aircraft below 5 years in the market unless you have NTUs, bankrupcies etc.

Buying new planes ? Yeah.... Dream about 15 A359 or B789 - even at LH's conditions this is a 2bn EUR investment, only the interest rates SN would have to pay at LH group conditions are nearly 100 Mio a year.

Be realistic, SN will fly 330s until the early 2030s and than it would roll over to used A359 or B789.

[oldblueeyes]

We have to look at the fleet not as a single business unit but at the whole group level. At the moment there are 43 A330-300’s in the group, amongs them 32 still between 9 and 18 years old. With Lufthansa and probably soon Swiss getting rid of them, it is to be expected that Discover and Brussels will share those bunch of 32 aircrafts in the mid term before switching most probably to A350’s or 787.

For some member this can be frustrating to have to wait so long to have shiny brand new aircraft and as a av-geek, I fully understand it, but in the other hand, this is a great opportunity for Brussels Airlines, Brussels Airport and Belgium to grow sustainably in the following years to come, expanding the portofolio of destinations and frequencies. And no worry fleet renewal will come at some point, no worry for that.

The fleet age indicates clearly when and how a roll over would happen.
The LH 333 should be totally transferred by 2027.
But: 8x333 at Discover are now at the edge of 20 years or older, thus their replacement shall start 2030-31. Around 2035 all A333 from Discover would need to be replaced.
SN has leasing which started 2018 with a typical 12 years term; taking into account the Covid break, around 2031 the first 333 would need to be replaced.

Around 2030 when both brands need other solutions,both A359 and B789 would have mid life aircraft available , also intern from the Lufthansa pool.

Swiss is another story - the logical decision would be not to upgrade the 333 to Senses with all the plates etc, but the reality is that there won't be enough A359 available on short term to replace them and the B777 upgrades may be delayed or LH is waiting for a certification together with the 779. Once a new cabin would be in, they would fly it over the remaining lifetime. Maybe some end of the tails could be replaced with A359 from subsequent deliveries.

[oldblueeyes]

If anyone is dreaming about nice-to-have fleets, attached a McKinsey report, that estimates the global aircraft shortage at approx 1.500 narrowbodies and 500 widebodies.
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/tra ... ppens-next

[Atlantis]

If anyone is dreaming about nice-to-have fleets, attached a McKinsey report, that estimates the global aircraft shortage at approx 1.500 narrowbodies and 500 widebodies.
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/tra ... ppens-next

That's why it is good to belong to a group where you can have a certain rotation of planes

[oldblueeyes]

It's always good to see the larger context, before claiming that theoretical "solutions" are the best, but in fact they would be out of reach.

Let's face it clear, the availability of aircraft in the market is very tight and lease rates emerged.

[fcw]

If anyone is dreaming about nice-to-have fleets, attached a McKinsey report, that estimates the global aircraft shortage at approx 1.500 narrowbodies and 500 widebodies.
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/tra ... ppens-next

Ah McKinsey…, I still remember them saying Swissair’s suicidal growth plan for Sabena was a good strategy!
If I’ve learned something in over 40 years in the business, it’s that the numerous huge growth or radical pullback plans, almost, never concretise.
Eg Wizz announced last week they won’t put +/- 80 A32Fs, which they have on order, into service.

[IronBirds@Brussels]

A mix of A321LR with 339(if possible second hand)could be a good option?
It's still one long haul type,the 321 is from the 320 family.

Right about leasing, but SN must break away from short-term strategies. Operating second-hand aircraft over 10 years old leads to higher maintenance costs, more frequent C-checks, and premature fleet renewal cycles.

A modern, uniform fleet built on a 20-year lifecycle is essential. Whether A350, A330neo, 787 or another type, the focus must be on consistency, reliability, and long-term operational planning.

Leasing is acceptable if it involves new or nearly new aircraft, ideally less than 5 years old.
Aging planes acquired for cost-saving purposes no longer align with market expectations or competitive standards...

Do you have any industry standards supporting your data or is it just "free opinion" based on nothing?

Becasue sorry, you're writing complete nonsense - you have totally no clue about the operating standards in aviation.

You need to take into account full cost: ownership, maintenance,fuel, product availability.

On top of this, you need to take into account cash flows - the brutal fact is that with it's todays operating profitability, SN can not afford to finance brand new long haul aircraft.

Aircraft below 5 years old? Yeah - ever heard about typical lease cycles of 10,12 and 16 years for long haul aircraft and the sweet spot for lessors to close transations? You won't get aircraft below 5 years in the market unless you have NTUs, bankrupcies etc.

Buying new planes ? Yeah.... Dream about 15 A359 or B789 - even at LH's conditions this is a 2bn EUR investment, only the interest rates SN would have to pay at LH group conditions are nearly 100 Mio a year.

Be realistic, SN will fly 330s until the early 2030s and than it would roll over to used A359 or B789.

Thanks for your reply, even though the tone was frankly unnecessary.
I never said that Brussels Airlines should buy 15 A350s or 787s by 2030. I’m fully aware that this would be a €2 billion investment and that SN can’t afford it alone.

What I said, and still stand by, is that a first strategic step needs to be considered in the coming years around 2030, given the aging of some aircrafts > 26 years.

You may be an expert in operations, fair enough, good for you and valuable for this forum, but communication and respectful dialogue clearly aren’t your strengths. I’m just presenting a structured argument, based on facts. That’s all.

[oldblueeyes]

The fleet strategy is communicated for a while : one size narroy body - it would be the 320 and one size widebody, with the A339 as of today out of the game.

There is a blue print on reducing complexity, and this Austrian Airlines, a mess on itsfelf as it was acquired. Since them, altough it took pretty long and mabye several loca interests were hurt, the fleet was simplyfied step by step:
- E195 replaced F70 and F100
- additional A320 replaced A319
- Q400 is out
- B789 shall replace B767 and B772

I would assume that several A351 options would be activated for the LH Group once the first are joining the fleet and validating the operational numbers, and consequently small sizes of used aircraft would be allocated to other brands.

[BrightCedars]

From a frequent flyer's perspective I prefer both B787 and A350 (the latter being a bit more spacious in Y) thanks to their lower altitude cabins. I never suffered too much from the pressurisation and depressurisation cycles but they seem to make this even more unnoticeable, or it is my advancing age.

An A330 cabin kept in good condition and eventually modernised can be very pleasing, and I do prefer the 2-4-2 seating layout when flying at the back of the plane. I did enjoy the sole flight I had on the A330-900 with Garuda. I flew abroad a 28 year-old BA B777-200ER last week and that was in good condition safe for the painfully slow IFE compared to more recent standards.

I'd think the most suited aircraft for SN is the B787 in 2 to 3 variants either -8, 9 & 10 or only -9 & 10, which gives flexibility to strategically deploy more capacity where more money can be made seasonally. I'm afraid the A350 would only be the already quite large -900 and that the -1000 is too large for them.

[oldblueeyes]

I'd think the most suited aircraft for SN is the B787 in 2 to 3 variants either -8, 9 & 10 or only -9 & 10, which gives flexibility to strategically deploy more capacity where more money can be made seasonally.

No way.
SN is not an independet company operating small subfleets of the same widebody family.
The fleet is sourced centrally for the group and the decisions are made:

- B789 is the entry size ( the A339 is a buy in because of acquisitions)
- A359 is following
- A351 is replacing A346 and likely B773 sizes
- B779 op top as an end top model
- B748 and transitionary A380 as last remaining ultra large widebodies

There is no reason for the LH group to order any B781 at the same size but less performance than the B789.

In a one-fits-all must have decision , SN would get either the 789 or the 359.

[Atlantis]

I just saw that Airbus will also upgrade the A330Neo. They will stretch is and MTOW will go up with 6 ton. More range, more cargo and more pax.

Maybe this would be a good one for SN. Although I would like to see them having the A350, it's maybe overkill.

All depends of course if LH would like to buy them for the group

[lumumba]

I just saw that Airbus will also upgrade the A330Neo. They will stretch is and MTOW will go up with 6 ton. More range, more cargo and more pax.

Maybe this would be a good one for SN. Although I would like to see them having the A350, it's maybe overkill.

All depends of course if LH would like to buy them for the group

Do you know something about the noise level?
Because that's obviously the problem for me as a passenger, I prefer the A330 900.
Im not a specialist but for flights beween 5 to 8 hours this should be perfect.
Let's hope.

[Matt]

I just saw that Airbus will also upgrade the A330Neo. They will stretch is and MTOW will go up with 6 ton. More range, more cargo and more pax.

Maybe this would be a good one for SN. Although I would like to see them having the A350, it's maybe overkill.

All depends of course if LH would like to buy them for the group

Do you know something about the noise level?
Because that's obviously the problem for me as a passenger, I prefer the A330 900.
Im not a specialist but for flights beween 5 to 8 hours this should be perfect.
Let's hope.

From what I have heard from Airbus is that the MTOW would go up with 6 tons. No stretch tough. (so more pax depends on the airline)

the trent 7000 would get a 330 kN thrust rating (tbc, still ungoing, could potentially be more) using tech used in the XWB-97. (the one used for the A35K)

I don't think it will aid the noise however. (which is a shame for SN)

[Atlantis]

SFE is coming back from the paintshop today

[BrightCedars]

There is no reason for the LH group to order any B781 at the same size but less performance than the B789.

Do you mean than the A359 there? Otherwise it's hard to understand.

I can see a number of factors that would make the B787-10 suited for SN as they don't need the performance of the A359 thus it may be better economically suited to their operations. If it's not allowed due to group constraints then I would rather have them fly the B789 than the A359, but then I also think the A321XLR would be a good match in BRU for better transatlantic connections and to increase frequency and nonstop service on select Africa routes.

All this remains my humble personal opinion.

[Duke]

the trent 7000 would get a 330 kN thrust rating (tbc, still ungoing, could potentially be more) using tech used in the XWB-97. (the one used for the A35K)

I don't think it will aid the noise however. (which is a shame for SN)

Maybe off topic, and then my excuses for this, but why would an A330-900 not meet the BRU noise criteria, opposed to an A350 with the same engines?
Most of the noise generated by an aircraft is produces from the engines, so they should both be equal, or am I mistaken?
Best regards,

Duke

[Matt]

the trent 7000 would get a 330 kN thrust rating (tbc, still ungoing, could potentially be more) using tech used in the XWB-97. (the one used for the A35K)

I don't think it will aid the noise however. (which is a shame for SN)

Maybe off topic, and then my excuses for this, but why would an A330-900 not meet the BRU noise criteria, opposed to an A350 with the same engines?
Most of the noise generated by an aircraft is produces from the engines, so they should both be equal, or am I mistaken?
Best regards,

Duke

The A330neo has Trent 7000 engines , the A359 Trent XWB-83, the A35K has Trent XWB-97. The XWB's are technically grosso modo the same, but are vastly different to the Trent 7000 engines. Unfortunately, the 7000 is louder than the XWB series due to different bypass ratio (10:1 on the 7000, 9.6:1 to the XWB) n.b. For the other aircraft engineers: I know there are other factors, but let's not get technical here

Belgium being a monkeyland (apenlandje), the federal gouvernement has restricted night landings @BRU to quieter aircraft, rendering the Airbus A330neo unviable due to its higher noise levels. The A350 does meet the criteria.

The Trent 700's on the current A330's also have this problem, but these are 2nd hand aircraft and much cheaper. I understand why they don't want to invest in brand new aircraft that don't meet the regulations.