BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

[Passenger]

Nice: our Lufthansa fleet manager and shadow CEO of Brussels Airlines overnight became the tourism expert on Sicilia - with "lots of Sicilian friends".

Flanker, you really don't know what you're talking about. And what is worse: you cannot accept that some people know it better then you. Look at the above Linkedin information about the pilot behind Be On Top. That's real experience about flying passengers to/from Sicily. Not something he learned from Wikipedia or Google.

So I repeat, with or without your approval: Sicily is an excellent seller between March/April and October/November.

[Flanker2]

Well do it then. I don't care, it's not my money.

I can't take you seriously anymore. Being a pilot doesn't give you any insight on the financial aspect of an operation. The only thing that a pilot will be able to be spot on about, is the fuel volume required for given route.

What pilots never get to see:
-Cost of maintenance
-Cost of overhead (management, marketing, customer service)
-Cost of salary except average flight crew salary
-Cost of catering
-Cost of ground handling
-Actual cost of fuel at different airports (not standard prices) except where tankering is a factor
-Average revenue of each flight
-Detailed revenue of each flight and passenger in each class.

The airline never divulges any of this information to its employees, because you never know who becomes your competitor.

A pilot can play a different role in a start-up. That's mainly paperwork (manuals, procedures) and operational considerations, aircraft choice, etc...

Forget it, we are not discussing this at the same level.
I don't want to pretend to be superior or something like that, you are just trying too hard to defy common sense.

[cnc]

Well do it then. I don't care, it's not my money.

I can't take you seriously anymore. Being a pilot doesn't give you any insight on the financial aspect of an operation. The only thing that a pilot will be able to be spot on about, is the fuel volume required for given route.

What pilots never get to see:
-Cost of maintenance
-Cost of overhead (management, marketing, customer service)
-Cost of salary except average flight crew salary
-Cost of catering
-Cost of ground handling
-Actual cost of fuel at different airports (not standard prices) except where tankering is a factor
-Average revenue of each flight
-Detailed revenue of each flight and passenger in each class.

The airline never divulges any of this information to its employees, because you never know who becomes your competitor.

A pilot can play a different role in a start-up. That's mainly paperwork (manuals, procedures) and operational considerations, aircraft choice, etc...

Forget it, we are not discussing this at the same level.
I don't want to pretend to be superior or something like that, you are just trying too hard to defy common sense.

ah yes in a world of machines that is true.
thank god we still have pilots making a chat with dispatchers, engineers, managers and pay attention to monthly company information.

[RoMax]

ah yes in a world of machines that is true.
thank god we still have pilots making a chat with dispatchers, engineers, managers and pay attention to monthly company information.

With all due respect, but pilots can not have a clear view on all these costs mentionned by Flanker. They can get an idea by talking with those people, but never get a clear overall view on those things.
Unless it's a pilot which combines his flying function with a managing function, but still those pilots mostly don't have a function which allows them to get detailled information and knowledge about all the costs involved in airline operations (from the flying itself maybe and closely related activities, but not about the whole company business).

[jan_olieslagers]

<sarcasm>
Yes, sure, surfing the www is a much superior source of information, of course.
But have you realised that most pilots are clever enough for that, too?

[RoMax]

<sarcasm>
Yes, sure, surfing the www is a much superior source of information, of course.
But have you realised that most pilots are clever enough for that, too?

If that reaction is pointed towards me, no. Did I ever said that? My post was in no way related to defending Flanker's knowledge, neither mine knowledge.

[Acid-drop]

le nombrilisme principautaire

Thanks for extending my vocabulary, but I will have to find the finer nuances of meaning and/or intention

Since i have to explain, i will. With a question:
Why do you think Jetair and thomas cook bother to fly from LGG and OST ?
And the answer is close to my first sentence : because some people live in a very local world, they like to speak their local language, they dislike to drive "far" and they dislike surprises from an unknown busy airport.
=> the market is there, waiting.
And there is no shame to say that many people in Liège are such... all cities have them.

It seems clear that Beontop is being launched by or with a Limburg-based Italian immigrant who thinks he can tap the immigrant base to fill his planes lucratively...

Indeed.
Why not after all ?

nombrilisme principautaire

For those who did not understand it : it's related to the history, Liège was the capital of the prince-bishopric of Liège, and many say the people today still have the mentality of thinking very local, as if Liège was the belly botton of the world. Liège is their world and they dont bother about the rest. It's probably the same for both limburgs, who share the same history and also feel appart.

[jan_olieslagers]

[[off-topic]]
Nombrilisme <==> Navelstaarderij

Yes yes, people from the city, whichever it be, will always feel superior over "those from the country".
Nice to read you: differences between Northern vs. Southern Belgium might well be less serious, and less widespread, than certain politicians, on both sides, would like us to believe...

Again: thank you for extending my vocabulary - and for discussing politely, and open-minded.

[saratoga]

Hi

Read this morning this article. Our wallonian friends do have a vision about aviation. Something that we in flanders can dream about.

http://www.vandaag.be/binnenland/152226 ... chten.html

Good day.

[airazurxtror]

In French :
http://www.lavenir.net/article/detail.a ... 4_00490542

Extract :

Les dirigeants de Liège Airport souhaitent lancer une compagnie aérienne régionale pour doper le trafic sur leur tarmac. Le directeur général de l’aéroport, Luc Partoune, vient d’envoyer un courriel à des investisseurs potentiels, les invitant à une réunion de présentation du projet.
M. Partoune précise que le projet est au stade d’élaboration du business plan, lequel «s’appuie sur les connaissances que nous avons du marché et de celles de l’ancien VP marketing & sales de Virgin Express».

The managers of Liège Airport want to start a regional airline to boost traffic on their airport. The Director General of the airport, Luke Partoune, just send an email to potential investors, inviting them to a meeting to present the project.
Mr. Partoune explains that the project is at the stage of preparing the business plan, which "is based on the knowledge we have of the market and the expertise of the former VP marketing & sales of Virgin Express.

[Inquirer]

Oh dear.
You do not create a solid business case by being your own customer.

There's obviously no significant market for scheduled flights from Liege, which is normal with BRU and DUS less than an hour away. That's why nobody is serving it.

Reminds me a lot of those ghost airports in Spain. There too, regional politicians spend tons of public money on prestige infrastructural projects like airport terminals only to pretend to their voters they would bring thousands of jobs to their district.

We all know how that ended, don't we?

[Passenger]

Read this morning this article. Our wallonian friends do have a vision about aviation. Something that we in flanders can dream about.

http://www.vandaag.be/binnenland/152226 ... chten.html

Maybe Liège Airport can ask Maastricht Airport what happened to their investment in the new regional airline Maastricht Airlines (*).

Perhaps it's not "a vision about aviation", but Flanders is investing quite a lot to make the runway at Antwerp Airport usable at full length. I've been there yesterday, and the works at the tunnel on the main road "Krijgsbaan" are progressing quite well.

(*) for those who haven't heard what happened to Maastricht Airlines: they went bankrupt last year, even before the first flight took off.

[crew1990]

Actually, i think that an airline based in LGG could be working if they get the right contract. Not for sheduled operation but an airline with 2 or 3 A319 or 737-700 flying on behalve of Thomas Cook Airlines and Jetairfly plus a few route to Italy and Morocco as sheduled flight but in cooperation of the tour operator could make sense...

However there is no place for any sheduled regional airline overthere to me.

[airazurxtror]

Ceaselessly, airlines appear and disappear.
Nothing wrong with that : that is what makes aviation so interesting for the spotters and the aviation passionnates.
Not like the railways, for instance, where the same companies, however deep in the red, continue forever without any change. How boring !
Maastricht Airlines, before going bankrupt, refunded the tickets already paid by would be customers. That is good enough for me.
Even if a new airline stands few chances of success, it's good to see entrepreneurs always willing to try.

[Established02]

Ceaselessly, airlines appear and disappear.

Disappear, yes. Appear, not sure.

Looking at the sitution in a big market like the US. There has been so much consolidation in the past few decades. There don't seem to be many successful new startups, after JetBlue in 2000 and Virgin America in 2004.

It's obvious how markets worldwide have become more and more dominated by the big players and the alliances. I really hope there is still a chance of survival and success for new, small startups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ai ... ted_States

[Acid-drop]

In wallonia there are a lot of wishfull talk and nothing ever happens, dont get impressed...
On the other hand there is still a countdown on the beontop website, so... Same people or different people ?

[Passenger]

Maastricht Airlines, before going bankrupt, refunded the tickets already paid by would be customers. That is good enough for me.

Euh, not for me. It seems indeed that all customers have been refunded. However, Maastricht Airlines has caused quite some damage to aviation. Local and provincial subsidies are gone with the wind. Suppliers have received no or only little payment of their invoices (ground handler, paintshop, uniform supplier, ...). Staff hasn't been paid in full. etc...

Back on topic:

The managers of Liège Airport want to start a regional airline to boost traffic on their airport. The Director General of the airport, Luke Partoune, just send an email to potential investors, inviting them to a meeting to present the project. Mr. Partoune explains that the project is at the stage of preparing the business plan, which "is based on the knowledge we have of the market and the expertise of the former VP marketing & sales of Virgin Express.

I cannot imagine how an airport can set up an own airline, and at the same time deliver full service to airlines that it will compete with. Perhaps not direct competition (= route to same airports), bur for sure indirect competition (= route to nearby airports).

[Acid-drop]

Here they seems to go for the beontop theory also
http://www-nieuw.l1.nl/nieuws/258688-bi ... e-beginnen

it matches the countdown.

An airlines with italy as focus would make sense for sure.

[Passenger]

Here they seems to go for the beontop theory also
http://www-nieuw.l1.nl/nieuws/258688-bi ... e-beginnen

The above article mainly refers to the article in L'Echo (like the LGG regional airline will be called Be On Top Airlines and Bierset can handle 1.500.000 pax annually, but now only handles 300.000), but the Dutch article adds that the Dutch town "Eijsden-Margraten" is worried about additional noise from LGG.

[andorra-airport]

I cannot imagine how an airport can set up an own airline, and at the same time deliver full service to airlines that it will compete with. Perhaps not direct competition (= route to same airports), bur for sure indirect competition (= route to nearby airports).

Koh Samui airport is owned by Bangkok Airways, and has some competing airlines serving it.. it seems to work. Even Ryanair has its own (defunct) airport. (Milovice) but I doubt they would allow a Wizz Air

Coul it be that BeOnTop is going to fly to Catania, as mentioned in there survey ?