SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June

[Flanker2]

and the pics are in: beautiful scratch-free windows by the way...





http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1901/reisnieuw ... mpje.dhtml

[Pocahontas]

It's nice to see how excited you are Flanker2. Must be a change for your family seeing you happy instead of nagging. Good for you.

Thanks for your contribution by the way.

[erasmus]

As an captain for one of the Belgian airlines, I consider myself to be in a good position to comment on this subject.

Outside the USA, where the FAA prohibits "controlled rest in the cockpit" (napping), it is a widely accepted procedure. In the USA, pilot unions and several large airlines have been requesting that this procedure would be adopted in the USA as well. (Google for more info if wanted)

How does this work: in my company it goes like this: only in cruise and for maximum 45 minutes, the other pilot informs the cabin crew that one of the pilots will be taking a nap, the remaining pilot will then call the purser via intercom every 15 minutes. If he fails to do so after 20 minutes, the cabin crew will call the flight deck to make sure that all is well.

In-flight napping is a good idea . Doesn't it make sense that a pilot takes a short nap during a period of light workload (cruise) and makes sure that he's well awake when the going might get tough, during approach and landing?

Contrary to what people seem to think, a pilot is not a machine. If you need to get up at 3:30 AM, it's easier said then done that you have to go to bed at 7 or 8 PM the night before. How many people would be able to sleep at that time of evening? Not many, certainly not if it's the first flight after a weekend or if you just performed a flight the night before. If pilots would always declare themselves unfit to fly after a not so perfect rest period, 50 % of the very early flights would need to be cancelled. Only in Utopia can you expect that pilots always have an uninterrupted 8 hrs of sleep just before starting duty. Recently I flew a series of flights where I had to get up around 3:30 am for six consecutive mornings. Luckily I'm a "morning-guy" and I tend to cope with this rather well. Will I be taking a nap in the cockpit in the cockpit during cruise? Of course I will, and I'm glad that it's possible in my airline as in most airlines outside of the USA!

Concerning this particular flight: a flight from BRU to the Canary islands and back is one of those flights where you would definitely consider taking a nap. Most probably it was either a very early departure from BRU (around 6 am, wake up call around 3:30) or a late return to BRU (well after midnight) If someone can not understand that it might be a good idea to take a nap during cruise, he needs to get his brain checked.

Now about the loss of com: It was at the beginning of the charter season, the B-line F/O was probably not very used yet to responding to a “Thomas Cook” callsign. Also foreign ATC units very often call Thomas Cook flights (tcw) with a “Kestrel” callsign (tcx= Thomas Cook UK) If I need to, I can imagine at least a dozen scenario's where a loss of com will occur. Most probably a mistake was made by the F/O somewhere. Was he an experienced F/O or was he quite new in the cockpit (captain was alledgely a TRI, line training) Was there a less then optimum performance? Probably yes. Is this gross negligence? Is this an unforgivable mistake requiring harsh corrections against this pilot? Certainly not! He probably learned a lesson that day, that he won't forget for the rest of his career. Loss of com during a few minutes occur dozens of times per day worldwide and even getting intercepted by the military is not very uncommon since 9/11. Being out of com for > 20 minutes and not getting a call for such a period should normally start to raise some eyebrows, but sadly humans are not perfect.

Conclusion: NO BIG DEAL INDEED. Of course this was not a perfect flight by this crew, but there was never any great or imminent danger. The way this is being presented by hln.be and especially the stupidity of 98% of their reader's comments are flabbergasting.

[sn26567]

Thanks for your enlightening comments, erasmus.

[Stij]

Hi Erasmus,

Thank-you very much for your very constructive contribution!

Being the father of a 2 year and a 0.5 year old, there 're other reasons as well why one could show up in the morning and need a nap when on cruising altitude. ; -) I would like take on in the office as well, but that's not allowed : -))))

Cheers,

Stij

[Inquirer]

Interesting contribution indeed, Erasmus.
Definitely very enlightening reading and such a difference from the often ill-informed guessing and subsequent attempt of steering by a few regulars here.
We need more of those professional views on this forum to rebalance whenever needed as there's only so much common sense and plain old fact checking and deduction can reveal.

[sean1982]

Thank you Erasmus .... exactly why I called it a non event

[convair]

I fully agree with you Erasmus. I hope SN has a similar procedure for cruise naps! I don't think the F/O should be punished this time (as you say, he will remember that French fighter's face for a long time) but I'm still doubtful about the callsign story; I guess it depends how long the episode lasted and how many calls he received.

[Flanker2]

Sorry Erasmus, but the fighter pilot didn't show up after 10 or 15 minutes.
After 10 minutes, ATC alerted military control.
From there, you need the pilot to run to his cockpit, climb up the ladder, start up the aircraft, take-off, climb, supersonic. You can't do all that in 3 minutes.

It takes time to intercept an aircraft and given that the fighter was alone, it's unlikely that he was on training.
Also look at the fuel tank... it indicates that this aircraft is an interceptor on standby, not an aircraft deviated from an exercise.

So let's count how many minutes the FO could have been sleeping.
Before ATC attempt to contact the flight = ?? minutes
From contact attempt of ATC, 10 minutes. 10 minutes
From ATC launching military to intercept. min. 10 minutes
From intercept contact with the aircraft, which military aircraft usually do using aircraft registration, to putting itself in front of the cockpit, 2 min.

So basically over 25 minutes.

It's not a non-event, the tolerance should be zero on such cases.
For me, if the captain wants to take a nap, a third person needs to be in the cockpit, such as a FA, just to make sure the FO doesn't fall asleep or become incapacitated, while the captain continues to sleep until they run out of fuel.
And if that is too much to ask for, then the captain should stay awake.

If going to bed at 7 and waking up at 3:30 am is too hard, it's time to look for a new employer or a new job and let other people who can live like that do that job.
The check-in people and cabin crew also wake up early, yet if they take a nap, they would be fired, no doubt.

If you go on a flight on your little autopilot-equipped Cessna Caravan and you fall asleep, what can happen?
Well, it's no different at FL350.
You can't count on the FA to launch her chrono at take-off time, so if both pilots are asleep, no matter if it's a mid-way through a 4 hour flight, the thing that's going to wake them up is the low fuel level warning.
That still gives 30 minutes of fuel for descent and landing, but if you overshoot BRU and fly for over an hour, you can be over sea, with little options.

When flying as passenger, I start my chrono at every take-off. Also, you can download one of those GPS coordinate apps, which gives your coordinates.
Just can't trust those upfront, I know too many of them
Plus when you read stories like these: http://avherald.com/h?article=47b86849&opt=0

To each his opinion.

[JAF737]

To each his opinion.

In casual use, the term opinion may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact.


Luckily some people only talk when they have an idea of what they say.
Thank you Erasmus for that!

[Lysexpat]

Conclusion: NO BIG DEAL INDEED.

Erasmus- whilst I fully agree with you analysis, I can`t agree with your conclusion.
This IS a fatigue related incident. The F/O must have been asleep too, as even if the F/O was expecting a B-Line callsign, he should have realised that there was no ATC contact for 20 to 25 minutes, which NEVER happens in European airspace.
It is NOT a mistake to fall asleep, it is completely normal if you see the roster pattern some pilots are working. Management and management pilots (are you one Erasmus?) will do everything to cover up incidents like this one.
Fatigue is one of the biggest dangers in todays aviation. Anybody remembers the Colgan 3407 crash? http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2010/aar1001.pdf

[Pocahontas]

IF the FO was asleep, how did the fighter pilot wake them up? With hand signals??? Come on...

[Flanker2]

Hln reported that cabin crew woke them up as passengers pointed them to the presence of the fighter jet, combined with the whistle of the Rafale.

[Passenger]

IF the FO was asleep, how did the fighter pilot wake them up? With hand signals??? Come on...

My dear Pocahantas, may I please refer you to Het Laatste Nieuws, “who represents the public opinion in Flanders”: the fighter pilot used his loudspeakers to wake up the co-pilot. Now you know.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland ... ines.dhtml

Let me give you all facts that this public opinion in Flanders made the world to know:

- the A319 was on his way from Lanzarote to Brussels. For hours, the flight encountered no problems (HLN.be: de vlucht verliep urenlang vlekkeloos)

- above France, the captain was fatigue so he decided to do a nap (HLN.be: de vermoeide captain besloot een dutje te doen)

- at 10km height and at a speed of 800 km/h, the captain ordered this co-pilot to keep an eye on the situation. After that instruction, the captain closed his eyes.

- above Nantes, French ATC tried to establish tadio contact with the crew. During ten minutes, the French ATC really tried everything to get in contact. No reaction however.

- this was enough for a full alert at the French Air Force (de alarmbellen gingen af)

- Luitenant Loïc Tatard: “we immediately sent out a Rafale, as it’s standard procedure in case of a comm loss”

- the armed fighter jet started the pursuit at a fenomenal speed (de gewapende straaljager zette met fenomenale snelheid de achtervolging in)

- hence it didn’t took long before the fighter jet could see the holidayplane from Brussels

- at first, he checked the identity of the aircraft through a code on the tail (eerst controleerde hij de identiteit van het toestel, aan de hand van een code op de staart)

- then the fighter jet pilot checked if the aircraft was strickly following the flight plan (daarop ging hij na of het toestel nog steeds strak de geplande route volgde)

- thanks to the commotion in the aircraft and the ominous, alarming screeching (crissement inquiétant) by the Rafale, some movements finally appeared in the cockpit (allicht door de commotie in het vliegtuig en het onheilspellende gesnerp van de Rafale kwam dan toch beweging in de cockpit)

- the fighter jet pilot made some movements with his ears and mouth, thus indicating he wanted to make contact.

- at last, that finally happened indeed (dat gebeurde uiteindelijk ook)

- as a precautuon, the fighter pilot kept an eye on what happened in the cockpit, to make sure there was no terrorist onboard. Only near the French/Belgian border, he released his grip on the Belgians (Pas aan de Belgische grens liet hij de Belgen weer los)

Brussels Airlines spokeswoman Wencke Lemmes: “our aircraft landed without any problem in Brussels. Soon after landing, an evaluation was done”.

HLN.be: According to a source with knowledge of this file, first reports indicated that the co-pilot was also asleep ( volgens een bron met kennis van het dossier was er in de eerste vaststellingen sprake dat ook de copiloot was ingedommeld)

Brussels Airlines denies that the co-pilot was also asleep: “the co-pioot did not react to the ATC calls because he thaught that ATC was calling another aircraft”.

So far for this report in Het Leste.

Now, did or didn’t Belgium escape a disaster here?! Or a catastrophe perhaps, no? Imagine that this holiday plane, obviously steerless, crashed on Doel 2 or Thihange 3?!

[end of sarcasm]

[Flying Apple]

The F/O must have been asleep too, as even if the F/O was expecting a B-Line callsign, he should have realised that there was no ATC contact for 20 to 25 minutes, which NEVER happens in European airspace.

I dont know what time the incident happened, but have you ever flown over the bay of biscaye at night? Not much talking going on there.

And if that NEVER happens in European airspace, why is it that some companies have an SOP to call ATC if they haven't been called in 25 minutes? Seems strange to implement an SOP for something that will never happen

[Lysexpat]

And if that NEVER happens in European airspace, why is it that some companies have an SOP to call ATC if they haven't been called in 25 minutes? Seems strange to implement an SOP for something that will never happen

Exactly because it never happens!! If you didn´t have contact for 25 min, you have, more than probably lost communications and try to re-establish contact with ATC.

[Lysexpat]

IF the FO was asleep, how did the fighter pilot wake them up? With hand signals??? Come on...

So he was awake and was happy to fly into French airspace for 20 min, without contact with French ATC???? Come on....
Once again falling asleep is not a mistake nor a shame, it is a real problem of todays aviation.
Denying it however is dangerous!