Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

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regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

earthman wrote:
regi wrote: Best example of a bad seal design is the Challenger disaster.
I disagree. The specific problem with the Challenger was that the launch took place outside the specified temperature tolerances for the seal, and that the engineers were unsuccessful in communicating the seriousness of the situation to management. The seal was 'good', it was just being used under improper circumstances. It did not fail under normal operating conditions. The problem with bad seals is that they do fail unexpectedly under normal conditions.

If I recall correctly, the larger issue apparently was that due to political bullshit the SRBs were manufactured in two parts in two different locations, and without this nonsense there would have been no seal at all.

If you want bad seal disasters, apparently the Deepwater Horizon had bad cement seals...
The seal design of the next Shuttles was changed.
But you are right: the seal itself was OK, even the design was OK - if used properly which was not so in this case with low temperature. But the entire red tape surrounding was bad.

Bralo20
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Bralo20 »

According to a source on Airliners.net the Airbus A380-842 with registration VH-OQA could be scrapped in Singapore and parted out for spare parts. According to the source the damage to the plane would be of that extend that not a single insurance company would give permission for a ferryflight to France...

I don't tend to believe it but if true this will be the first hull loss for the A380 in only 3 years of commercial service...

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sn26567
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sn26567 »

Meanwhile all Qantas A380s remain grounded for engine inspections "for at least another 72 hours". A few RR Trent 900 engines have already been found that need more serious examination.

By the way, why did Qantas order the Trent 972 engine that has a higher trust than the Trent 970 used by most other airlines?
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andorra-airport
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by andorra-airport »

sn26567 wrote: By the way, why did Qantas order the Trent 972 engine that has a higher trust than the Trent 970 used by most other airlines?
"It uses the extra thrust for maximum weight take-offs on the long-haul routes between Los Angeles, Sydney and Melbourne.

The extra thrust is particularly important on the Melbourne route which, at more than 15 hours, is the longest in the Qantas network."

It comes from this article in "the australian" :


HIGH-POWER take-offs used by Qantas A380s on trans-Pacific routes could be responsible for potentially dangerous oil leaks now under scrutiny.

The leaks may be a possible factor in last week's engine explosion near Singapore.

Engineers believe the higher thrust levels at which the carrier operates its Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engines may result in resonating vibrations that cause oil lines to crack.

The theory has emerged after in-depth inspections uncovered oil in three A380 engines in areas where it should not be present.

All three engines are being replaced as the airline continues with its regime of rigorous checks in the wake of the near disaster on flight QF32 last Thursday.

The Qantas A380 involved, which came into service two years ago, was also used for the trans-Pacific story. The oil leaks in the three engines, found in the intermediate pressure turbine area housing a disc similar to the one that disintegrated in last week's spectacular mid-air drama, caused spotting and pooling that had the potential to spark damaging fires in the engine.

An August oil fire in the same area of a Trent 1000 engine, a derivative of the 900, is believed to be responsible for an uncontained failure on a test bed in Britain.

Qantas A380s have a maximum thrust setting of 72,000lbs, higher than fellow Trent 900 operators Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines but still 3000lbs below the design limit of 75,000lbs. It uses the extra thrust for maximum weight take-offs on the long-haul routes between Los Angeles, Sydney and Melbourne.

The extra thrust is particularly important on the Melbourne route which, at more than 15 hours, is the longest in the Qantas network.

Engineers from Qantas and Rolls-Royce had been looking for reasons the oil leaks had been found in Qantas planes but had not turned up in inspections performed by Singapore Airlines and Lufthansa. They were particularly concerned the engines were relatively new, with the damaged engine on QF32 having recorded just 900 landings and take-offs before it flew apart.

The engines on the three planes are identical except for a computer chip that defines the maximum power rating and the engine is certified to operate at the higher thrust level.

The engineers arrived at what is now the flying kangaroo's lead theory after considering whether the engines might be acting differently during operations from their performance in factory tests.

If the theory pans out, the hope is that Rolls-Royce can devise a way of operating the engine on take-offs and climbs that does not produce the damaging resonance.

The airline is continuing to inspect for other potential engine faults, but Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said yesterday the focus of the investigation had narrowed in terms of the oil leaks and he was comfortable it was on the right track.

Mr Joyce said the leaks should not be occurring and were outside the normal specifications and design of the aircraft. He said it was too early to be definitive on what the issues causing the engines to perform outside normal parameters were, or how long they would take to be repaired.

"We are working very closely to get a speedy recovery on this, but I won't comment on how long it will take until that investigation is completed," he said.

Mr Joyce said the airline would not resume flying the A380s until it was 100 per cent sure its operations were safe. It has already replaced one of the three affected engines, has a second spare ready to go and is working with Rolls-Royce on finding a third.

Desert Rat
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Desert Rat »

andorra-airport wrote: The engines on the three planes are identical except for a computer chip that defines the maximum power rating and the engine is certified to operate at the higher thrust level.

.
It is sometimes referred to as the "Bump" option.

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earthman
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by earthman »

Oh, I thought it was the 'ludicrous speed' setting.

andorra-airport
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by andorra-airport »

Singapore Airlines has grounded A380s in Melbourne and Sydney this morning after a crew's refusal to fly in London this morning. Just before midday, Singapore confirmed that it had grounded three of its 11 Rolls-Royce powered A380 jets. The latest concerns emerged today after one of Singapore's big jets was grounded at Heathrow airport following a crew mutiny. The crew refused to fly the jet which was due to take-off for Singapore after oil was found in one of the jet's turbines.


New reports have emerged that the engine failure near Singapore last week caused more damage to the plane involved than first thought.The No 2 engine's violent disintegration ripped a hole through the Airbus A380's left wing, destroying wiring that prevented the pilots from turning off the No 1 engine and causing a fuel leak.Suggestions have now emerged that there was also significant damage to hydraulic systems that prevented spoilers, panels on the wing that create drag to slow the plane down, from deploying.

heraldsun.com.au

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

andorra-airport wrote:Singapore Airlines has grounded A380s in Melbourne and Sydney this morning after a crew's refusal to fly in London this morning. Just before midday, Singapore confirmed that it had grounded three of its 11 Rolls-Royce powered A380 jets. The latest concerns emerged today after one of Singapore's big jets was grounded at Heathrow airport following a crew mutiny. The crew refused to fly the jet which was due to take-off for Singapore after oil was found in one of the jet's turbines.
New reports have emerged that the engine failure near Singapore last week caused more damage to the plane involved than first thought.The No 2 engine's violent disintegration ripped a hole through the Airbus A380's left wing, destroying wiring that prevented the pilots from turning off the No 1 engine and causing a fuel leak.Suggestions have now emerged that there was also significant damage to hydraulic systems that prevented spoilers, panels on the wing that create drag to slow the plane down, from deploying.

heraldsun.com.au
Strange, the BBC doesn't mention the mutiny, but refers to different oil leaks than Qantas. And SQ will change the engines for a newer RR design.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11723778

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sn26567
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sn26567 »

SIA to change engines on three A380s

Singapore Airlines is to change the Rolls Royce engines on three of its A380 superjumbos after discovering oil staining, according to media reports. The move follows Qantas' decision to ground its fleet of A380s, after an engine failure on a flight from Singapore to Sydney last week.

SIA has a total of eleven superjumbos in its fleet, and had decided to change one engine on each of three A380s. The decision has been taken as a "precautionary" measure, and the aircraft in question will probably fly to Singapore without passengers for the engine swaps.

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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by andorra-airport »

Lufthansa says it has replaced a Rolls-Royce engine on one of its Airbus A380 superjumbos after maintenance checks detected a problem.

Spokesman Thomas Jachnow said Wednesday the plane is back in service and that scheduled A380 flights have not been affected by the engine change.

Jachnow declined to specify the problem, but said it was minor and not connected with the oil leaks that have grounded Qantas and Singapore Airlines superjumbos using the same type of engine.

Jachnow said the decision to replace the powerplant had been taken as a precautionary measure after consultations with Rolls-Royce.

- AP

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sn26567
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sn26567 »

andorra-airport wrote:Lufthansa says it has replaced a Rolls-Royce engine on one of its Airbus A380 superjumbos after maintenance checks detected a problem.
Indeed: it was on D-AIMA, the first A380 delivered to LH in May this year (just 6 months old). LH is one of the three airlines currently equipped with RR Trent 900 power plants.

That means that all three airlines (QF, SQ and LH) have now at least replaced one engine on one of their A380s.
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sn26567 »

QANTAS extends A380 service suspension till late-Nov 2010

As per 11NOV10 GDS timetable display, QANTAS is extending its Airbus A380 service suspension until 25NOV10.

Planned service resumption date for current A380 routes as follows (Note there may be possibility of service being resumed at earlier date, please contact airline directly for details):

Melbourne – Los Angeles eff 26NOV10
Melbourne – Singapore – London Heathrow eff 29NOV10 (LHR departure 26NOV10)
Sydney – Los Angeles eff 27NOV10
Sydney – Singapore – London Heathrow eff 26NOV10 (LHR departure 28NOV10)

Until these dates, service are operated by Boeing 747-400 instead.

Source: airlineroute.net

SIA's three A380s to return to service in 48h

Singapore Airlines (SIA) aims to return three Airbus A380s to service within the next 48 hours, after the aircraft was pulled out of the fleet for engine changes. The Star Alliance carrier has carried out "precautionary engine changes" for three Rolls-Royce Trent 900 powerplants on the aircraft.

The three A380s were brought back to Singapore yesterday from Melbourne, Sydney and London for the engine replacements, after oil leakage was reportedly found in the engines during inspections.

In the meantime, the airline will deploy Boeing 747 and 777 aircraft on some services operated with A380s previously to minimise flight disruptions.

The changes will affect the airline's flights between Singapore and Sydney and Melbourne until 17 November.

Source: flightglobal
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sdbelgium »

http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_ad_2 ... 0-0236-E_1
Analysis of the preliminary elements from the incident investigation shows
that an oil fire in the HP/IP structure cavity may have caused the failure of
the Intermediate Pressure Turbine (IPT) Disc.
This condition, if not detected, could ultimately result in uncontained
engine failure potentially leading to damage to the aeroplane and hazards
to persons or property on the ground.
For the reasons described above and pending conclusion of the incident
investigation, this AD requires repetitive inspections of the Low Pressure
Turbine (LPT) stage 1 blades and case drain, HP/IP structure air buffer
cavity and oil service tubes in order to detect any abnormal oil leakage,
and if any discrepancy is found, to prohibit further engine operation
.
Should happen within 10 flight cycles and repeated every 20 cycles.

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

off topic:
another world leader of engines comes in the news because of an engine fire : Wartsila. The Carnival Splendor caught fire in the engine room and is towed back to harbour with thousands of passengers on board. Because the engines are out, there is no power for aircon, kitchen, ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AA0HO20101111
http://beyondships.com/CarnivalSplendor-interview.html

I sent this just to show that engine manufacturing is a tricky business.

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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by sn26567 »

EASA calls to inspect A380 Rolls-Royce engines

The European Aviation Safety Agency has ordered airlines to carry out new inspections of the Rolls-Royce engines on the Airbus A380 superjumbo after analysis of one which blew up on a Qantas flight.

Preliminary analysis showed that an oil fire may have caused the "uncontained failure" of the Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engine. The agency said it therefore "requires repetitive inspections" of certain parts of the engine "in order to detect any abnormal oil leakage, and if any discrepancy is found, to prohibit further engine operation."

More from AFP

... and EASA airworthiness directive
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regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

according this article, RR says that the cause of the fire was a failing bushing.
I feel more and more a cold shiver at my back because I almost immediately refered to 2 different manufacturing techniques: forging or casting.
For bushings it is most economical to make them by spun casting or extrusion. A forging is much more expensive, but is stronger.

I am really eager to know how they made the original bushings...

just in Dutch for the moment:
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/buite ... us_oorzaak

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earthman
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by earthman »

Not a bushing but a bearing box. Or is that almost the same?

I've been following the relevant thread on a.net. The part causing the oil leak had already been replaced by RR on new engines with an improved design (as the article you quoted mentions). They just did not think that the old part would lead to oil leaks quite as soon as it obviously did.

The leaking oil started to burn. This in turn degraded the strength of the IP turbine disk, which then decided it needed a vacation on Batam. The failure of the bearing box itself was not catastrophic.

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

earthman wrote:Not a bushing but a bearing box. Or is that almost the same?

I've been following the relevant thread on a.net. The part causing the oil leak had already been replaced by RR on new engines with an improved design (as the article you quoted mentions). They just did not think that the old part would lead to oil leaks quite as soon as it obviously did.

The leaking oil started to burn. This in turn degraded the strength of the IP turbine disk, which then decided it needed a vacation on Batam. The failure of the bearing box itself was not catastrophic.
Depends how it looks. A bearing box is just the holder of the bearing. Depending on the dimensions it can be a ring, but also longer, so that is why I think about a bushing. I should see it first to give it the right name.
Anyway, I get more and more curious to see a picture of it, and the techical details about it: what the difference is in manufacturing technique between the old and new design.

regi
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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by regi »

And Qantas has a third in a row : a B747 had to return because of electrical problems.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/1 ... tml?hpt=T1

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Re: Qantas grounds A380 fleet after incident over Indonesia

Post by Unilitha2 »

I don't know what you guys think about it, but a few time ago, Qantas was along with Swiss considered (and this statistically proven) as being one of the safest airlines in the world with almost no record of accidents. And in a roughly 2 years period, the company had to face more than 6 major incidents with its fleet, whether they were with Boeing or Airbus aircrafts ...

A new article I found on RTBF website (sorry, only in French) states that 2 flights had to head back to their departure airport a few minutes after take off ... A 744 inbound to Argentina from Sydney had to head back to Sydney, the reason would be an electrical problem, as the company would describe as a "minor defect" ...

Last week, a 767 had to go back to Perth a bit after take off, the company stated that it was due to a vibration in one of the engine, and once again that it was a minor defect... Btw, the engine were from GE not Rolls-Royce.

What I want to point (and ask at the same time), is whether one should not blame Qantas rather than the manufacturer ? Singapore has grounded its all A380 fleet after the Qantas incident, ok it may have been proven that something was wrong on the RR engine of the A380 but still, with so many incidents happening to Qantas in such a short period of time, I would ask myself some questions ...

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