Not so. It was ridiculous to keep on building houses near the airport. Exactly the other way around.Vinnie-Winnie wrote:we should admit that it was ridiculous to expand it in the first place.
A 2nd National Airport in Belgium, a good idea?
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killerwhale65
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Re: We need no lessons from such people.
Last edited by killerwhale65 on 27 Jun 2005, 16:28, edited 1 time in total.
Matthias Thoen
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Well, I think is fair enogh to say that the expansion of Zaventem was a stupid political desision.
In the past when desisions about investment at Zaventem have been at the table, the politicians should see that this airport will be a problem in the future regarding its geographic position near Brussels, and regarding the fact that the dominant winds forced the plane to take off in the direction of the city.
Any geographer will say that a city expand. It is a natural and positive phenomenon. And therefore it is normal that Zaventem bacame less and less out of Brussels.
So in the past instead of heavelly invest in Zaventem politicians should found another site, more southernely located from Brussels.
But anyway, past is past and following the heavy investment that has been done in Zavemtem it is stupid to speak about a closure if this airport, and it is also stupid to speak about two national airport in a such small country.
In the past when desisions about investment at Zaventem have been at the table, the politicians should see that this airport will be a problem in the future regarding its geographic position near Brussels, and regarding the fact that the dominant winds forced the plane to take off in the direction of the city.
Any geographer will say that a city expand. It is a natural and positive phenomenon. And therefore it is normal that Zaventem bacame less and less out of Brussels.
So in the past instead of heavelly invest in Zaventem politicians should found another site, more southernely located from Brussels.
But anyway, past is past and following the heavy investment that has been done in Zavemtem it is stupid to speak about a closure if this airport, and it is also stupid to speak about two national airport in a such small country.
Hello folks,
everybody knows that debates about the Belgian communities always tend to give frictions. Personal attacks are either allowed on this site. So, I suggest that some members in this topic cool a bit down as it's these days also a bit too hot outside. Please, just keep to the topic "2nd airport" self which seems interesting enough to talk about it.
Brgrds S 8)
everybody knows that debates about the Belgian communities always tend to give frictions. Personal attacks are either allowed on this site. So, I suggest that some members in this topic cool a bit down as it's these days also a bit too hot outside. Please, just keep to the topic "2nd airport" self which seems interesting enough to talk about it.
Brgrds S 8)
The discussion has been going out of hand last night, when I was asleep. I have been warned by several members that there were personal attacks against other members and messages against the friendship and tolerance that should be the characteristic of an aviation website.
I have thus deleted a few messages.
Please keep the discussion about whether or not there should be a 2nd national airport in Belgium. This is the only condition for this thread to remain open.
I have thus deleted a few messages.
Please keep the discussion about whether or not there should be a 2nd national airport in Belgium. This is the only condition for this thread to remain open.
André
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Bruspotter
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Hello
Again time to set something straight.
Quote:
Indeed....but let me remind that the majority of the part of Brussels city has come LATER than Brussels airport , and that Brussels airport (although it was called different in the old days I guess...)has already moved once from Haren (where you have the large train formation station now) to Zaventem/Melsbroek the current location , where the first runway 25R was found. So they don't need to move AGAIN , but this time it has to be the PEOPLE who have to move. Only yesterday already , I've seen it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN ...people migrating to villages like ; Perk , Berg , Nederokkerzeel , and Erps-Kwerps. Wile I drove from Oevel to Brussels airport (about 40km) I think I can say that I drove of the largest part of the arrival route of by example the US and UK inbound route and also the Norhtern destinations routes...and so I think I can say , that when I drove THAT whole part I can talk about It. I have been looking up MANY times wile driving , but only saw 3 or 4 planes on arrival for 25R in the morning (between 06:30 and 08:50 so...that's not a lot to complain about in the morning. Besides When I stood at the wall I have heard again the contrast between close at the airport and far away. I'll give you a example; I stood on the wall at P3 and when an airplane was standing (haaks)on the direction that I was looking at (at 25R) , so with the nose to the north , you could hear it clearly , but when it turned up it's ass to you and started to speed up , I could only hear little noise. So BEHIND the wall it must have been really silent. But when I was at Café 'Jumbo' later on the day I heard departing (what seems to be a heavy) an airplane at 25R and I could hear it VERY loud , so hard that we started thinking there was a 747 coming in on the nearby 25L. So I don't think people don't have to complain in Steenokkerzeel etc...besides...they already decreased the car-traffic trough the town center , now that the traffic is diverted to the new road to the tower , wich lies BEHIND the wall too (One stupid thing...they have placed fences where you CAN'T see trough
) so they MUST have been Isolated wich makes that the noise Decreased again. So if I count good...the noise must have been decreased 3times , except in villages like Nossegem .
And wile driving to my place to the airport on the Haachtse steenweg , I could clearly see all those people are building new houses close to 25R approach route , knowing that within 3months they're living there they will start complaining.
The contrast is heavy with further villages. When I was driving back home to Haacht wich is easily 13km removed from the airport , there was that Kalitta Air Cargo 74F who was flying over the town at a alt of 3150ft (estimated---Really Low!!) after departure at 07L. And he took that real sharp turn to the US when climbing and to be very honest THIS one made a LOT of noise. And I don't know wetter the people of Haacht complain so... I don't think nearby or Brussels living villagers need to complain to lot. Because...nightflights are already very limited and for the day I think they should just leave the planes alone.
Best regards: Yannick
Again time to set something straight.
Quote:
politicians should see that this airport will be a problem in the future regarding its geographic position near Brussels, and regarding the fact that the dominant winds forced the plane to take off in the direction of the city.
Indeed....but let me remind that the majority of the part of Brussels city has come LATER than Brussels airport , and that Brussels airport (although it was called different in the old days I guess...)has already moved once from Haren (where you have the large train formation station now) to Zaventem/Melsbroek the current location , where the first runway 25R was found. So they don't need to move AGAIN , but this time it has to be the PEOPLE who have to move. Only yesterday already , I've seen it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN ...people migrating to villages like ; Perk , Berg , Nederokkerzeel , and Erps-Kwerps. Wile I drove from Oevel to Brussels airport (about 40km) I think I can say that I drove of the largest part of the arrival route of by example the US and UK inbound route and also the Norhtern destinations routes...and so I think I can say , that when I drove THAT whole part I can talk about It. I have been looking up MANY times wile driving , but only saw 3 or 4 planes on arrival for 25R in the morning (between 06:30 and 08:50 so...that's not a lot to complain about in the morning. Besides When I stood at the wall I have heard again the contrast between close at the airport and far away. I'll give you a example; I stood on the wall at P3 and when an airplane was standing (haaks)on the direction that I was looking at (at 25R) , so with the nose to the north , you could hear it clearly , but when it turned up it's ass to you and started to speed up , I could only hear little noise. So BEHIND the wall it must have been really silent. But when I was at Café 'Jumbo' later on the day I heard departing (what seems to be a heavy) an airplane at 25R and I could hear it VERY loud , so hard that we started thinking there was a 747 coming in on the nearby 25L. So I don't think people don't have to complain in Steenokkerzeel etc...besides...they already decreased the car-traffic trough the town center , now that the traffic is diverted to the new road to the tower , wich lies BEHIND the wall too (One stupid thing...they have placed fences where you CAN'T see trough
) so they MUST have been Isolated wich makes that the noise Decreased again. So if I count good...the noise must have been decreased 3times , except in villages like Nossegem . And wile driving to my place to the airport on the Haachtse steenweg , I could clearly see all those people are building new houses close to 25R approach route , knowing that within 3months they're living there they will start complaining.
The contrast is heavy with further villages. When I was driving back home to Haacht wich is easily 13km removed from the airport , there was that Kalitta Air Cargo 74F who was flying over the town at a alt of 3150ft (estimated---Really Low!!) after departure at 07L. And he took that real sharp turn to the US when climbing and to be very honest THIS one made a LOT of noise. And I don't know wetter the people of Haacht complain so... I don't think nearby or Brussels living villagers need to complain to lot. Because...nightflights are already very limited and for the day I think they should just leave the planes alone.
Best regards: Yannick
Oke, it's time to interrupt this topic.
People, there is no place anymore in Belgium to get a new 2nd national airport! Everywhere are houses or whatever. The only place are the bushes in the Ardennes. But let's us own also so green in Belgium.
So what can you do? We have some smaller airports like Ostend, Antwerp, Charleroi and Liege. Let makes from these airports really good airports. In Liege they are going the good way. My company TNT Express Worldwide invests a lot of money in this airport. We signed a contract till 2036, spending millions of euros to build new buildings, and we are going to create 400 new jobs. So, you can make from Liege a good cargo airport together with some foreign carriers. They are also make a second landingsstrip, hopefully to attract more B747's.
Thomas Cook also flies from Liege, you can perhaps offer more destinations from this airport, so you can offer flights from Brussels and Liege.
Ostend: the same here: make this airport attractive. Make good facilities for cargo carriers. Tui Flies also from this airport, so why don't offer more destinations from this airport. Also offering flights from Brussels and Ostend.
Then you have the question what about Antwerp and Charleroi? Antwerp is really small, so you can make from this airport a real airport that is attractive for businesspeople. So VLM could offer destinations to the major and really important businesscentres in Europe like London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris, etc. Small airport so less people, quick check-in and VLM is very punctual.
Charleroi: I don't know what to offer from this airport. In theory it's Brussels South. I don't know much about this airport. Is it important for the region, are their a lot of companies. Is this airport really necessary?
So there are a lot of ways to use our airports. All the airports have good connections by way and air. So makes it attractive, try to get appointments with the environnement like in Schiphol and you can at this way relieve our airports.
Is that not a good idea?
People, there is no place anymore in Belgium to get a new 2nd national airport! Everywhere are houses or whatever. The only place are the bushes in the Ardennes. But let's us own also so green in Belgium.
So what can you do? We have some smaller airports like Ostend, Antwerp, Charleroi and Liege. Let makes from these airports really good airports. In Liege they are going the good way. My company TNT Express Worldwide invests a lot of money in this airport. We signed a contract till 2036, spending millions of euros to build new buildings, and we are going to create 400 new jobs. So, you can make from Liege a good cargo airport together with some foreign carriers. They are also make a second landingsstrip, hopefully to attract more B747's.
Thomas Cook also flies from Liege, you can perhaps offer more destinations from this airport, so you can offer flights from Brussels and Liege.
Ostend: the same here: make this airport attractive. Make good facilities for cargo carriers. Tui Flies also from this airport, so why don't offer more destinations from this airport. Also offering flights from Brussels and Ostend.
Then you have the question what about Antwerp and Charleroi? Antwerp is really small, so you can make from this airport a real airport that is attractive for businesspeople. So VLM could offer destinations to the major and really important businesscentres in Europe like London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris, etc. Small airport so less people, quick check-in and VLM is very punctual.
Charleroi: I don't know what to offer from this airport. In theory it's Brussels South. I don't know much about this airport. Is it important for the region, are their a lot of companies. Is this airport really necessary?
So there are a lot of ways to use our airports. All the airports have good connections by way and air. So makes it attractive, try to get appointments with the environnement like in Schiphol and you can at this way relieve our airports.
Is that not a good idea?
There is something moving in the landscape of all the problems about our National airport.
Mister Herman De Croo wants that the problem will solved decently because we are making ourselfs in de world redicilous. Think about DHL, BHV and now our only National airport.
Francis Vermeire, Zaventem, for him it's impossible that the airport will disappear. After the seaport of Antwerp, the airport is the second largest economic pool in our country. Take this away and we are a country with nothing. He says also that this debate is only a move for the elections. But we know what it means.
ACV, Lode Vanschingel, plans big actions for the coming months. They are know spreading pamphlets at Brucargo to keep the airport open. This was a request of the militants in the big companies at Brucargo.
He says also that the time was come to hear our voice who works at the airport. Because the politicians only hear the voices of the actiongroups. But that's typical in our country.
Mister Herman De Croo wants that the problem will solved decently because we are making ourselfs in de world redicilous. Think about DHL, BHV and now our only National airport.
Francis Vermeire, Zaventem, for him it's impossible that the airport will disappear. After the seaport of Antwerp, the airport is the second largest economic pool in our country. Take this away and we are a country with nothing. He says also that this debate is only a move for the elections. But we know what it means.
ACV, Lode Vanschingel, plans big actions for the coming months. They are know spreading pamphlets at Brucargo to keep the airport open. This was a request of the militants in the big companies at Brucargo.
He says also that the time was come to hear our voice who works at the airport. Because the politicians only hear the voices of the actiongroups. But that's typical in our country.
Just a few comments :
- Liège airport didn't wait the problems in brussels to become a big cargo airport and an alternative to bru.
Liège airport had 383.303 tons of cargo in 2004 and became the 9th european airport for cargo (Brussels is the 5th with 603.737 tons of cargo). It's growing every year because of the quality of the new installation and the very good localization of Liège.
Futhermore, a new passenger terminal was open this year, which means that the airport is now ready for serious matters.
As said before : TNT has signed a new agreement with the walloon Region and the SAB, Managing company of the airport, which includes new investments and a presence at Liege Airport at least until 2036 !
The surface of the hub will be doubled, parkings for cars shall be built, as well as a new office building. This is in addition of the new terminal, the enlargement of the track, the construction of a hotel, connection with high speed train network, and many more ...
Info (in french only, sorry about that) : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9roport_de_Bierset
Info about TNT : http://www.tnt.com/country/en_corporate ... ress1.html
and of course http://www.liegeairport.com
TNT until 2036 (liege local TV (french only)) : http://www.rtc.be/index.php?option=news ... e&sid=2618
- For the languages problems : an airport is an international place for international peoples, so it's normal to speak international languages like english, french or german. When i go to norway or slovenia, i do not expect anybody to talk to me in norvegian or slovenne, as i dont expect anybody to talk dutch in brussels airport.
- Liège airport didn't wait the problems in brussels to become a big cargo airport and an alternative to bru.
Liège airport had 383.303 tons of cargo in 2004 and became the 9th european airport for cargo (Brussels is the 5th with 603.737 tons of cargo). It's growing every year because of the quality of the new installation and the very good localization of Liège.
Futhermore, a new passenger terminal was open this year, which means that the airport is now ready for serious matters.
As said before : TNT has signed a new agreement with the walloon Region and the SAB, Managing company of the airport, which includes new investments and a presence at Liege Airport at least until 2036 !
The surface of the hub will be doubled, parkings for cars shall be built, as well as a new office building. This is in addition of the new terminal, the enlargement of the track, the construction of a hotel, connection with high speed train network, and many more ...
Info (in french only, sorry about that) : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9roport_de_Bierset
Info about TNT : http://www.tnt.com/country/en_corporate ... ress1.html
and of course http://www.liegeairport.com
TNT until 2036 (liege local TV (french only)) : http://www.rtc.be/index.php?option=news ... e&sid=2618
- For the languages problems : an airport is an international place for international peoples, so it's normal to speak international languages like english, french or german. When i go to norway or slovenia, i do not expect anybody to talk to me in norvegian or slovenne, as i dont expect anybody to talk dutch in brussels airport.
And what Ostend concerns, well,...never heard about Willoo? That action group is nothing more or less than a Don Quichotte style person, a teacher by the way, who would want that the entire airport disappears , being converted into a new rain forrest with high trees where he can climb in.
That is the current situation over here.
That is the current situation over here.
Yes, Antwerp is small and it stays small when there is nothing changed. It's not if there is for one time a big movement that everyone knows where the airport of Antwerp is.regi wrote:Antwerp small?
A few months ago, there were some organisations who want to spend a lot of money in this airport on condition that the landingsstrip will be longer. But we all know the problem. The next decision is in September and they will also ask if Antwerp can exist any longer. This was also in the press and on the news.
The plans of TNT to expand at the airport of Liege exists for some years. So the problems with Brussels had nothing to do with that. TNT was never interested in Brussels, DHL was the main user. For us was the move from Cologne to Liege expected. We have from there easy connections with Amsterdam - what now also expand for TNT: payload from Asia and the USA arrived in AMS and per truck to Liege for distribution in Europe - and Germany, France, etc.
Today at Luchtvaartnieuws. Schiphol needs to grow, they want to go to 600.000 or 700.000 flirght a year. But then the rules has to be flexible, houses has to be broke down with fin compensations for the people.
And- very important - when new habitants wants to go build new houses around the airport or they want live near the airport they have to sign a statement they they accept the noise and that they not use any juridical effort to complain.
That's what we need for Zaventem.
And- very important - when new habitants wants to go build new houses around the airport or they want live near the airport they have to sign a statement they they accept the noise and that they not use any juridical effort to complain.
That's what we need for Zaventem.
Yes, me again. But I don't care, there is everyday a lot of news about his topic.
Like this: a year ago BIAC ordered a study at the University of Antwerp and a lot of other people to have a resurch about Brucargo.
The study is now completed and you can read this big book at the site of BIAC. This story was also today in "Het Nieuwsblad" and yesterday on Teletekst of the VRT.
In a nutshell: Brucargo, BIAC, can be a big player around the big airports in our neighbour country's. But then we needed the HST and some alternatives to get some big avenues to the airport, like from the E19 and the traffic jam at the "Brusselse Ring" are a problem to functioning well.
There are some companies who are interested after the depart of DHL in 2008. There are for some new companies even concrete plans to make their European hub at Brucargo but no futher news about that, logic.
At first intention Macquarie had no interest in cargo, but they see the advantage of it and they are now turning by and in some time it could be one of the priority's.
There are "plans" to use the B737 aircrafts of Virgin Express for cargo transport next to the pax transport. SN Brussels can expand with larger airplanes to change the small Avro's - with no place for cargo - by bigger airplanes.
Like this: a year ago BIAC ordered a study at the University of Antwerp and a lot of other people to have a resurch about Brucargo.
The study is now completed and you can read this big book at the site of BIAC. This story was also today in "Het Nieuwsblad" and yesterday on Teletekst of the VRT.
In a nutshell: Brucargo, BIAC, can be a big player around the big airports in our neighbour country's. But then we needed the HST and some alternatives to get some big avenues to the airport, like from the E19 and the traffic jam at the "Brusselse Ring" are a problem to functioning well.
There are some companies who are interested after the depart of DHL in 2008. There are for some new companies even concrete plans to make their European hub at Brucargo but no futher news about that, logic.
At first intention Macquarie had no interest in cargo, but they see the advantage of it and they are now turning by and in some time it could be one of the priority's.
There are "plans" to use the B737 aircrafts of Virgin Express for cargo transport next to the pax transport. SN Brussels can expand with larger airplanes to change the small Avro's - with no place for cargo - by bigger airplanes.
Yeah well ... i dont see the point for a company to invest in brussels when liege airport (again yes :p) is ready for more.
So ? Brussels vs Liège = problems vs simplicity ?
Both have many highways going everywhere but brussels's are always full, localizations are both perfect (being 1h closer to paris means being 1h further from frankfurt, so it's egual). A passenger airport must be in the middle of the country, but for cargo, it's not necessary, liege is a real alternative. Many highways, no congestion, train connection, HST line is 300 meters away from airport, space to grow, enough people to work, no language problems...
Why would you like to find a compromise with many regions and many gouvernments when you can have a very simple plan in liege with only one authority.
Why would you choose an airport with known problems and night flights limit if you have an open "cargo only" airport with very modern and comprehensive infrastructure only 90km from there.
No, really, i dont understand inverstors.
So ? Brussels vs Liège = problems vs simplicity ?
Both have many highways going everywhere but brussels's are always full, localizations are both perfect (being 1h closer to paris means being 1h further from frankfurt, so it's egual). A passenger airport must be in the middle of the country, but for cargo, it's not necessary, liege is a real alternative. Many highways, no congestion, train connection, HST line is 300 meters away from airport, space to grow, enough people to work, no language problems...
Why would you like to find a compromise with many regions and many gouvernments when you can have a very simple plan in liege with only one authority.
Why would you choose an airport with known problems and night flights limit if you have an open "cargo only" airport with very modern and comprehensive infrastructure only 90km from there.
No, really, i dont understand inverstors.
Why should a cargo company not invest in BRU? We have BRUCargo, did you ever see a map of BruCargo? http://www.brusselsairport.be/brucargo/ Look at all those companies located over there. That's an advantage for BRU that LGG doesn't have. Those companies bring in a lot of traffic and volume, not only from cargo carriers but also as cargo onboard passenger aircraft. That's another benefit for BRU.Acid-drop wrote:Yeah well ... i dont see the point for a company to invest in brussels when liege airport (again yes :p) is ready for more.
So ? Brussels vs Liège = problems vs simplicity ?
Both have many highways going everywhere but brussels's are always full, localizations are both perfect (being 1h closer to paris means being 1h further from frankfurt, so it's egual). A passenger airport must be in the middle of the country, but for cargo, it's not necessary, liege is a real alternative. Many highways, no congestion, train connection, HST line is 300 meters away from airport, space to grow, enough people to work, no language problems...
Why would you like to find a compromise with many regions and many gouvernments when you can have a very simple plan in liege with only one authority.
Why would you choose an airport with known problems and night flights limit if you have an open "cargo only" airport with very modern and comprehensive infrastructure only 90km from there.
No, really, i dont understand inverstors.
Concerning the capacity i think those companies can handle more freight than they do right now. BRU is neither operating at full capacity. So their is enough room for expansion. And when DHL moves their hub to Leipzig, even more space and capacity becomes available.
BRU has also many highways, a train connection, the HST line is not far away, there is space to grow, enough people to work, so far not different from LGG.
And what language problem are you talking about? At BRU a company can hire people who speak Dutch or French or people who speak both those languages. And most of them do speak English too. So what makes BRU different from LGG? There companies can hire French speaking people and if they need people who speak Dutch too, then they hire people in Limburg which is not far away.
1 authority in LGG??
Like BRU is controlled by 3 regions/governments. In BRU the Belgian and Flemish laws are applicable
In LGG the Belgian and Walloon laws.
So what is the difference? That one regional law is replaced by another regional law depending of the region where you are as a there is no national law.
Why do you want to move cargo airplanes to LGG instead of finding a compromise?
Well, if that region likes those airplanes so much, how come it is so difficult for them to find a compromise for BRU?? The regions should have to like airplanes everywhere or not at all!!
Do I have something against LGG? Not at all, but it is up to the airports to compete with eachother
Politics and regions should stay out of the business, the only thing they can do is creating a better environment for investments in their region but the real business decisions should be made by the companies.
So if airlines prefer BRU, it is their choice, no one should force them to move.
OO-VEX