Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

[sean1982]

I dont think they are doomed as in ALL jobs will be lost. I dont think they will be able to do what they were doing in the last couple of years in german hand though as their interests dont lie in Belgium and quite a lot of the non-operational jobs will eventually be lost.

What do you know about my short term career move and my current contract conditions vs my old ones inquirer? (and what does it have to do with this topic? )

Firstly its none of your business and secondly, I have no job insecurity whatsoever and the conversion from pound to euro is hardly an issue. thanks for your concerns

[sn26567]

Selon le directeur d'Eurowings, Jörg Beißel, au moins 38 des 49 appareils de Brussels Airlines conviendraient parfaitement au modèle Eurowings.

Viscount Davignon reacted strongly to that statement this morning: "We are not a carpet. I deplore the declarations made by Eurowing's boss. They are not in line with the communication of the Board of Deutsche Lufthansa AG. This is a topic for the upcoming discussion between SN Airholding and Lufthansa."

According to Davignon, no decision has been taken yet on the potential integration of Brussels Airlines into Eurowings.

[Inquirer]

As said before, the couple of hundred back office jobs can largely be offset by more flying jobs, Sean.
Still remember the discussion about how much intercontinental planes it takes to employ the equivalent of 200 office staff? You and I both learnt it was less than 3. That's peanuts for a big group like Lufthansa.

But whatever, let's not have this discussion again: without a clear idea of their future plans, nothing is very meaningful. What I do notice is that this topic is apparently interesting enough for you to come back to post your opinions and predictions while giving rise to worry in the minds of a few people, despite having long quit this forum: must be the temptation to post them was just too big to resist, was it?
Benevolent, for sure.

As to your remark about my interest in your professional well being: may I point out you make reference to that in your previous post yourself, when you refer to the past 14 years of your career spend outside of a Belgian company, working at Ryanair? Excuse me for showing a similar interest in the past 4 months then, since working for British Airways. Good to read they've agreed to pay you in euro: it avoids you from taking home fewer money every single month as the pound keeps dropping.

[Conti764]

Inquirer, I have red your reply with a lot of intrest. All I hope for is the continuous growth of SN, even under a EW umbrella, at BRU. If jobs are preserved and Both BRU and whatever company SN will turn out to be qnd their will be a solid growth at BRU, fine by me. But I'm just 'worried' all LH wants is to turn BRU into some local feeder airport for the groups hubs...

[sean1982]

It's not about benevolent whatsoever. I came back cause the scenario that is unfolding so far, is pretty muc as I have predicted it since about a year or two. I wanted to give my 2 cents worth, am I not entitled too?
A few people PM'ed me about me leaving and appreciating my input from within, thats why I came back. Quite of you SN fanboys take it way to personally, as seen by the repeated personal attacks (again) in the last 2 days. Its nothting personal for me. I have absolutly nothing against SN. I just think, business wise, they smelled the coffee way too late.

A
As to your remark about my interest in your professional well being: may I point out you make reference to that in your previous post yourself, when you refer to the past 14 years of your career spend outside of a Belgian company, working at Ryanair? Excuse me for showing a similar interest in the past 4 months then, since working for British Airways. Good to read they've agreed to pay you in euro: it avoids you from taking home fewer money every single month as the pound keeps dropping.

OT for a sec. Im being payed in pound but my pound pay is equal to my EURO pay in FR. As long as the pund doesnt drop below the euro i still have more than before (not to mention job satisfaction). As for bad decision making, I signed my contract 3 months before brexit was voted, which no-one believed it would happen. BA did give us quite some garantuees though. A large amount of their employees are non-native british people.

[sn26567]

Sean and Inquirer, could we please stick to the topic and leave the personal items away.

Thanks!

[Passenger]

This is what Trends / Le Vif wrote about that press conference from Karl Ulrich Garnadt (CEO Eurowings):

L'administrateur a ajouté que Brussels Airlines avait les coûts opérationnels les plus faibles au sein du groupe Lufthansa.

Now, let's see how Bloomberg reports that same statement:

Brussels Airlines has the most competitive flying costs among Lufthansa group carriers, he said.

I'm just a poor Flemish peasant with Dutch as native language, but it seems to me that "les coûts les plus faibles" is the opposite from "the most competitive costs".

[Inquirer]

It's not about benevolent whatsoever. I came back cause the scenario that is unfolding so far, is pretty muc as I have predicted it since about a year or two. I wanted to give my 2 cents worth, am I not entitled too?

Of course, and it's even appreciated by me.
However, allow me to say I don't really know what is your predicted scenario so far?
Other than that they will be taken over by Lufthansa, something which both of us predicted (not very hard too btw: it was something which was foreseen since 2008, despite it being pushed back quite a few times), it's really not clear at all what your scenario is?

I noticed that as a beginning of your scenario you've mentioned quite a few times the brand Brussels Airlines to disappear and to you that's clearly a huge deal, apparently, but other than that, there's remarkably few flesh on the bones, if I may say so.

To me, the name means nothing: I am solely interested in the situation under the lick of paint.

Maybe this is the occasion to share with us your scenario: will they be dissolved as a legal company with the planes transferred onto the Eurowings company? Will they wetlease planes to Eurowings like Air Berlin and that Swiss company flying for easyjet from Switzerland is doing? Will they create a JV to market all of the flights to/from BRU together under codeshares, similar to how transatlantic flights are sold by all STAR alliance airlines?
I think those are the things which matter most, especially in the light of your predictions about massive job losses, which I notice were at the other end of your scenario from which the all important body itself is completely missing so far.

Quite of you SN fanboys take it way to personally, as seen by the repeated personal attacks (again) in the last 2 days. Its nothting personal for me. I have absolutly nothing against SN. I just think, business wise, they smelled the coffee way too late.

I am not taking anything personally at all, nor do I see myself as a fanboy of anybody: I am here to discuss matters which interest me, from my own background which as you may have noticed is quite oriented towards dull corporate governance, rather than just the superficial aspects of corporate image.
And if you take an intellectual discussion like this as a personal attack, then I am very sorry since such isn't the aim, but then maybe you shouldn't come and discuss here.

As to them smelling the coffee too late: I'd say they've smelled late, but still just on time, as evidenced by them successfully turning the situation around, pushing back low costs at their home base (vueling pulling out, ryanair adding zero new summer (!) destinations next year), posting a profit and ultimately rising the interest of Lufthansa so they finally get bought by them, which I think could be a very good thing for their future expansion, as well as that of the airport. We'll have to see: but as said before: at least they have opportunities which before were non-existent.

[Inquirer]

This is what Trends / Le Vif wrote about that press conference from Karl Ulrich Garnadt (CEO Eurowings):

L'administrateur a ajouté que Brussels Airlines avait les coûts opérationnels les plus faibles au sein du groupe Lufthansa.

Now, let's see how Bloomberg reports that same statement:

Brussels Airlines has the most competitive flying costs among Lufthansa group carriers, he said.

I'm just a poor Flemish peasant with Dutch as native language, but it seems to me that "les coûts les plus faibles" is the opposite from "the most competitive costs".

Euh
"coûts faibles", means weak (low) costs
"competitive costs" are low costs in this context
I don't see what you mean, Passenger?
Sounds correctly translated to me indeed?

Brussels Airlines are reportedly having the lowest costs of all the Lufthansa brands, including Eurowings, since it comes from their own administrator.
Quite remarkable indeed, to me, this is and clearly a major asset too.

[Passenger]

To me, "the most competitive costs" means "Brussels Airlines performs the best in the LH Group".

To me, "les coûts les plus faibles" means Brussels Airlines performs the worst in the LH Group.

[Inquirer]

You're French is really bad, passenger: 'coûts faibles' means 'lowest costs' for sure.

[convair]

'coûts faibles' means 'lowest costs' for sure.

You're right Inquirer, but Trends/Le Vif should have used "les plus bas" i.s.o. "les plus faibles" which is a bit meaningless imo (what is a "weak" or a "strong" cost?).

[sean1982]

It's not about benevolent whatsoever. I came back cause the scenario that is unfolding so far, is pretty muc as I have predicted it since about a year or two. I wanted to give my 2 cents worth, am I not entitled too?

Of course, and it's even appreciated by me.
However, allow me to say I don't really know what is your predicted scenario so far?
Other than that they will be taken over by Lufthansa, something which both of us predicted (not very hard too btw: it was something which was foreseen since 2008, despite it being pushed back quite a few times), it's really not clear at all what your scenario is?

I noticed that as a beginning of your scenario you've mentioned quite a few times the brand Brussels Airlines to disappear and to you that's clearly a huge deal, apparently, but other than that, there's remarkably few flesh on the bones, if I may say so.

The brand name change is sad, but should be least of the employees' worries. The scenario that I believe will unfold is that the non-operational part of SN will be fairly quickly dismantled. HR, Flightplanning, training, cargo, middle management,etc ... They dont need that anymore. There are already people in germany doing the exact same thing. No company will pay 2 people do to one job if it can be done by one. You say: they can be replaced by flying jobs. Possibly, if huge growth plans are introduced by the germans. But tell that to mister middle manager or mister flight planner who needs to feed his family.

I think the airline will operate as a Ryanair base operates, with that difference that they will operate under the OO- register. Airline groups see that non-national europe wide brands work. Norwegian, easyjet, ryanair, vueling, wizzair,transavia, eurowings. Non of them identify themselves as representing a nation, they represent A COST and A SERVICE attached to that. Some of them position themselves lower cost "a la carte", other ones as a slightly higher cost "more service included".

The long haul division of SN is what the current saviour of SN and the only reason why the germans are not barging in today with their brand. It might be kept as a seperate entity or it might be rebranded to keep uniformity. All is takes in one big media campaign to say "SN is now Eurowings, same service, different name", much like TUI is doing now.

[Inquirer]

Yes, but please note how 'coûts faibles' is a fixed expression in French.
Low Cost Carrier (LCC) translates as Transporteur à Faibles Coûts (TFC)
It's just the way it is, even if confusing to a non native.

[Inquirer]

It's not about benevolent whatsoever. I came back cause the scenario that is unfolding so far, is pretty muc as I have predicted it since about a year or two. I wanted to give my 2 cents worth, am I not entitled too?

Of course, and it's even appreciated by me.
However, allow me to say I don't really know what is your predicted scenario so far?
Other than that they will be taken over by Lufthansa, something which both of us predicted (not very hard too btw: it was something which was foreseen since 2008, despite it being pushed back quite a few times), it's really not clear at all what your scenario is?

I noticed that as a beginning of your scenario you've mentioned quite a few times the brand Brussels Airlines to disappear and to you that's clearly a huge deal, apparently, but other than that, there's remarkably few flesh on the bones, if I may say so.

I think I don't have to repeat myself 10.000 times? The brand name change is sad, but should be least of the employees' worries. The scenario that I believe will unfold is that the non-operational part of SN will be fairly quickly dismantled. HR, Flightplanning, training, cargo, middle management,etc ... They dont need that anymore. There are already people in germany doing the exact same thing. No company will pay 2 people do to one job if it can be done by one. You say: they can be replaced by flying jobs. Possibly, if huge growth plans are introduced by the germans. But tell that to mister middle manager or mister flight planner who needs to feed his family.

I think the airline will operate as a Ryanair base operates, with that difference that they will operate under the OO- register. Airline groups see that non-national europe wide brands work. Norwegian, easyjet, ryanair, vueling, wizzair,transavia, eurowings. Non of them identify themselves as representing a nation, they represent A COST and A SERVICE attached to that. Some of them position themselves lower cost "a la carte", other ones as a slightly higher cost "more service included".

The long haul division of SN is what the current saviour of SN and the only reason why the germans are not barging in today with their brand. It might be kept as a seperate entity or it might be rebranded to keep uniformity. All is takes in one big media campaign to say "SN is now Eurowings, same service, different name", much like TUI is doing now.

To that kind of theoretical scenario I can subscribe.
Yet does it need to be a bad thing for the airline, like you imply in every post?
As said before: at worst, those couple of hundreds of office jobs possibly lost will easily be made up with the number of crew needed to operate 2, 3 additional intercontinental planes as they grow further.
Sad for those individuals who might have to go over time, but that's just the way it goes these days everywhere and whenever a company adjusts to the new economic reality.
Just ask around in our banks these days: Other than IT people, not much profiles are being recruited.
They don't even need a German shareholder to tell them that: lower yield and increased competition does, just like in aviation, in fact.
I'm sure it has even been ongoing already over the past few years, given they are reportedly having the lowest costs of the hole Lufthansa group. It's not possible to have that with a massive overhead structure.
I really fail to understand your long term negative take on such a scenario?

[travellover]

SN is a sensible tread anyway. Even LH go forward cautiously. Aren't for instance the fleet leasing costs a reason to the low costs performance ?

[sn-remember]

The long haul division of SN is what the current saviour of SN and the only reason why the germans are not barging in today with their brand. It might be kept as a seperate entity or it might be rebranded to keep uniformity. All is takes in one big media campaign to say "SN is now Eurowings, same service, different name", much like TUI is doing now.

How interlining with star members work and what about the M&M program ?
For instance flights like :
zrh-bru-iad-clt (mixing lx,sn(or ewl/h?),ua)
fih-bru-nrt (sn or ew l/h,nh)
ebb-ord (sn or ew l/h, ua)
abj-yul (sn or ew l/h,ac)
etc ..
You can only develop l/h with that scenario in mind ...
..
Also I don't believe much in mega hubs, it's has been shown a not so popular concept these days. Also remember the A380/b787 debate (mega hubs vs smaller hubs) and the result ? A lot of elements point to the multi smaller hub model being more effective, me modestly think ..

[DeltaWiskey]

Imo, the name is really not the most important thing at stake here. For me, it much more important to keep the employment, further build on the current strategy (hybrid carrier, growing long haul network), have a decision centre in BRU and keep the positive spirit within the company.

From what I hear, it is currently not Lufthansa's goal to dismantle SN. Lufthansa has already some members in SN's Board of Directors and they have been supportive over the past few years. Also, without the support of LH, SN wouldn't have been doing as well as it is now. Ok, you can say that some members voted against the repayment of the loan, but what most people seem to forget is that it kept the money within SN, rather than in the pockets of the shareholders. That is not a bad thing.

Also, as long as the shareholders have not agreed on the conditions of the takeover, still a lot can happen, but I am positive for now. It would be really stupid to destroy a winning team.

[Passenger]

Most of the doom secenarios that have been posted here since yesterday all assume that Brussels Airlines will be integrated into Eurowings. Yes, Eurowings’ CEO said so yesterday. But he also added “not before 2018”. Davignon meanwhile has given the reason for those statements: “unfunded rumours, pre-play for the forthcoming negociations SN Airholding/Lufthansa”.

Some people suggest that Eurowings' aim is to become the third low cost after Ryanair and Easyjet. It wasn’t. It was established to stop the LCC growth at airports where a LCC is in direct competition with Lufthansa. And Brussels Airlines is realizing that, with its hybrid sales system (see DeltaWiskey’s post). It would be utterly stupid for Lufthansa to take a risk with Eurowings at BRU, whilst they have the guarantee that Brussels Airlines can do it.

I have no experience with technical aviation matters, but I do have some experience with sales. And I can assure you: traffic to the European Union, to the Nato and to all international companies in Brussels will not switch to a low cost. The nature of their travel is only possible on flexible legacy carriers. Therefore, as soon as Brussels Airlines would become a LCC, another European legacy carrier will fill the gap at BRU.

Same about the scenario that SN's Africa would move to FRA or MUC. Sure, transfer-pax from France don’t care if they have to fly TOU-BRU or CDG-FRA. But the Belgian-based clientele will not fly BRU-FRA to board a German carrier: they will fly Air France. Boarding the A330 in BRU indeed.

[Conti764]

Or the A330 of RwandAir, or a long haul plane from Congo Airways which Af/KL will happily supply to take icing of the BRU cake...

LH would be stupid to give up BRU.