Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same day

[Passenger]

You just proved again that that jumpseating did not really teach you a lot because fuel BURN has nothing to do with fuel UPLIFT! Like all airlines FR encourages it's pilots to fly conservitave to keep fuel BURN low.

No sir, this whole story is not about Ryanair's encouragement to fly conservative. Stay with the facts please. What is at stake here, is Ryanair's too high pressure onto pilots (= as says CIAIAC, as says the court) to load as little fuel as possible because that saves the airline money. One doesn't need to be a pilot to understand that the more fuel has been loaded, the more fuel the aircraft will consume during take off and during the flight.

This is getting to the point of ridiculous

What is ridiculous here (actually already far beyond) is the way that you (and zuur) go on with defending the indefensible. You've lost your tribunal case against KRO Reporter, you've lost your appeal case against KRO Reporter, there are firm statements from the Spanish CIAIAC, ... But yet you insist and persist that there was no safety issue and that all airlines do it. Like I said before about this persistency: there are no American troops in Baghdad...

(edited: typo error)

[sean1982]

I dont care what CAIAC says. I dont care what the dutch court says. I WORK there. EASA hasnt got any problems with FR. The IAA hasnt got any problems with Fr. I deal with this stuff EVERY SINGLE day and there is no pressure on pilots to carry "as little fuel as possible" WHATSOEVER.
No captain (in any company) in their right mind is going to take an aircraft in the sky with 200 lives in their hands and run the risk of hanging there having to think: I might lose my engines cause I dont have enough fuel. The fact that you come here and try to sell that to the world that FR is doing that on a daily basis is in fact criminal. Multiple people on this topic who actually WORK as pilots or in aviation have testified that fuel preservation is an industry wide practice. So who is comical Ali then? You dont even work in the industry, yet you are the expert?!? (And no sitting in a jumpseat 5 times doesnt qualify as experience)

There is an encouragement to BURN as little as possible by flying in a conservative way as much as possible. And NO judge is who has looked at some papers and has no further background into operating Large transport aircraft is going to convince me and thankfully most other people in the world from the opposite. In fact, the only person who seems to care (because it fits in your hate campaign) is YOU! Even though with multiple stupidities in your interventions you prove time and time again that you dont have a clue what you are talking about! In fact I am DONE argueing with a muppet like you. I said what I have to say and 99% of the sane people on this forum can draw their conclusion

[Nevihta]

I said what I have to say and 99% of the sane people on this forum can draw their conclusion

Yep, but don't be to sure what these conclusions are...

[sean1982]

I said what I have to say and 99% of the sane people on this forum can draw their conclusion

Yep, but don't be to sure what these conclusions are...

Wouldnt expect any other answer from an SN crew member. You probably fly with full tanks on all flights dont you?

Never mind, I've said enough. Im not gonna let passenger succeed

[sn26567]

I think everybody has said enough. Unless we have new developments in the coming days or weeks, this thread is archived.

[sn26567]

Wouldnt expect any other answer from an SN crew member. You probably fly with full tanks on all flights dont you?

After the topic has been locked, member Nevihta asked me to state that he's not a crew member of SN, nor or any other airline.

[sn26567]

This one is not Ryanair, but it is also in Spain, and concerns another low-cost: Transavia.

Incident: Transavia B737 at Barcelona on Apr 17th 2016, landed substantially below final fuel reserve

[...] The flight crew became aware of their extremely low fuel while descending towards Barcelona. While on final approach a sudden change of winds occurred resulting in more than 30 knots of tail wind component forcing the crew to go around and immediately declare emergency as landing with final fuel reserve intact was no longer possible further advising, they needed to land instantly on one of the runways 07. The aircraft was vectored for an immediate approach in opposite direction to one of the runways 07 and landed with just 470kg of fuel remaining. Gossip running within the company (and spreading outside the company) states that there had been a fuel computation error by dispatch, that was not picked up by the flight crew resulting in the fuel emergency.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4977d5e1&opt=0

A little frightening, if you ask me!

[Passenger]

On 26th July 2012, Ryanair had three fuel emergencies whilst diverting from Madrid into Valencia. On 28th Dec 2012 and 03 Jan 2013, the Dutch investigation journalism tv program KRO Reporter broadcasted two documentaries into these incidents and into Ryanair's pressure onto pilots. On 20th Januari 2013, a summary of both programs and an additional interview with O’Leary was broadcasted in KRO Brandpunt. General conclusion of KRO Reporter/Brandpunt was that Ryanair’s pressure onto its pilots to limit their fuel is dangerous, and that Ryanair's company policy regarding reports of unfit to fly is also dangerous.

Ryanair then went to court and asked for a rectification, but the court case was dismissed, in favour of KRO Reporter. Ryanair then went into appeal.

On 14th July 2015, the Dutch court of appeal "Gerechtshof Amsterdam" (a multiple chamber with three judges) has confirmed that the KRO broadcasts were “justified and fair” (see verdict remark 3.17). All Ryanair griefs were rejected.

Direct link to the verdict:
http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzien ... :2015:2887

This Dutch court verdict is one that Ryanair won’t like because the Appeal Court copy/pastes and confirms the findings of KRO Reporter. Example: the Court states that statements by the Irish IAA are not relevant, and the court agrees with the Spanish CIAIAC that the three fuel emergencies were caused by Ryanair’s company policy on fuel. See Court verdict 3.13: “Dit houdt in dat de CIAIAC van het incident te Alicante dezelfde oorzaak ziet als van de incidenten te Valencia, te weten het brandstofbeleid van Ryanair”.

Update 23th December 2016:

Ryanair appealed against the above verdict and they went to the Dutch Hoge Raad = the Dutch Suppreme Court of Justice. And today, the Hoge Raad / Suppreme Court also ruled against Ryanair. The case is closed now: appeal against a decision of the Suppreme Court is not possible.

Final verdict 23 Dec 2016 – short statement:
http://deeplink.rechtspraak.nl/uitspraa ... :2016:2996

The Hoge Raad’s Attorney-General’s view, leading to the above verdict (= full text):
https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2016:1118

Ryanair went to court three times, and they lost three times. This final verdict is a relief for all websites and all journalists, reporting about aviation incidents and safety incidents.

[jan_olieslagers]

appeal against a decision of the Suppreme Court is not possible

Not an expert on justice, allow me a bit of doubt: I always understood that exhausting national justice was a requirement for going European? As I read this, there is indeed no more action possible before Dutch Courts, so that now and only now a procedure before European court becomes possible?

[Passenger]

appeal against a decision of the Suppreme Court is not possible

Not an expert on justice, allow me a bit of doubt: I always understood that exhausting national justice was a requirement for going European? As I read this, there is indeed no more action possible before Dutch Courts, so that now and only now a procedure before European court becomes possible?

Computer says the answer is no.
If Ryanair thinks that the Appeal Court, in its verdict of 14th July 2015, has made an error against whatever European legislation, that protest (objection) had to be brought forward to the Hoge Raad/Suppreme Court. Ryanair could then have asked that the Dutch Suppreme Court asks the European Court of Justice for an intermediate verdict (= a prejudicial question).