Boeing 787 news

[RoMax]

A JAL 787 caught fire. This is beginning to look like a big problem. My opinion is that Boeing is pushing production too hard, too fast.

This time it was a battery of the APU, so something else as in the other cases (which were not real fires as the materials in that avionics bay can't be burned). But still al incidents with the electrical system...not good.

[Passenger]

A JAL 787 caught fire. This is beginning to look like a big problem. My opinion is that Boeing is pushing production too hard, too fast.

Local CBS news with link to some photo's:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/01/07/s ... n-airport/

[Passenger]

WASHINGTON - Jan. 7, 2013 - Investigators with the National Transportation Safety Board are gathering information regarding reports of smoke aboard a Boeing 787 at Boston’s Logan Airport today.

The Japan Airlines 787 was on the ground and empty of passengers at the time of the incident.

The NTSB has dispatched an investigator to Boston. Based on a review of the factual information gathered, the NTSB will determine the extent of its investigation.

[sn26567]

Japan Airlines confirms that "the smoke was traced to a fire from the battery used for the auxiliary power unit." The auxiliary battery, made from lithium ion, may have been damaged by a fire axe, exacerbating the situation. This is confirmed by an NTSB report.

United Airlines is inspecting its Boeing 787s following the JAL fire in Boston, and this inspection reveals improper battery wiring on one United 787.

Boeing says that the Japan Airlines fire appears unrelated to previous Dreamliner electrical issues.

Another Japan Airlines Boeing 787 returned to the gate in Boston for a fuel leak. With already two Dreamliners grounded in Logan airport, will JAL send another Dreamliner on next JAL008 flight to Boston?

Meanwhile, the NTSB is sending two additional investigators to probe the JAL 787 incident at Boston Airport, and the CAAC delays the Boeing 787 certification in China.

The clouds seem to be accumulating on Boeing's latest bird...

[RoMax]

Lithium ion battery...oh god. Some years ago the FAA stated that they were concerned about the high amount of lithium ion batteries Boeing uses in the 787 (the A380 uses a very limited amount, but other aircraft usually don't use lithium ion batteries, at least not in the amount Boeing does in the 787). The FAA pointed out these can be quite dangerous batteries, like in the case they are overloaded. Back in those days Boeing 'proved' they could use these batteries very safely in commercial aircraft...

The incident doesn't seem to be related to previous problems with United and Qatar in the power distributing panels (in the same rear avionics bay). But the problems with the extensive electrical system of the 787 seems very worrying. United and Qatar had problems with a power distribution panel (and not a generator like first reported), the 'fire' during the test flights was also in one of the power distribution panels (the supplier changed the design and production process and Boeing made changes to the whole system so that the other panels could back up the failure of one panel, LAN reported reduced reliability of the 787 compared to their other aircraft due to problems with the electrical and cooling system of the 787 (though they report the reduced reliability was planned) and now JAL having a fire caused by a battery...

Dropping the bleed air design as used by other aircraft by another new, extensive electrival system was innovative and would be great if it would work as planned, but the problems are accumulating...

[sn26567]

Lithium ion battery...oh god.

Ironically, the batteries of the 787 are made in Japan by GS Yuasa Corp., Japan's top producer of traditional lead acid auto batteries with a 35 percent share of the domestic market.

Japan Airlines said six of its seven Boeing 787 aircraft are operating in Japan, while one remains at Boston Logan. Japan's transport ministry ordered inspections of batteries in the auxiliary power unit. JAL inspected six of the units and found no problems.

The problem with Japan Airlines’ other 787 in Boston was resolved after a four hour delay and the aeroplane took off for Tokyo.

Boeing Statement:

Regarding Monday’s event onboard a Japan Airlines (JAL) 787 at Boston Logan Airport, we are working closely with the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), our customer and other government agencies. JAL has reported that smoke detected while a 787 was on the ground after passengers disembarked and during cleaning was traced to the battery used to start the auxiliary power unit (APU).
As is standard practice within the industry, it would be premature to discuss additional details at this stage as the investigation is ongoing. However, nothing that we’ve seen in this case indicates a relationship to any previous 787 power system events, which involved power panel faults elsewhere in the aft electrical equipment bay. Information about the prior events has been shared with the NTSB and they are aware of the details.

Boeing is cooperating with the NTSB in the investigation of this incident. Before providing more detail, we will give our technical teams the time they need to do a thorough job and ensure we are dealing with facts, not speculation.

SEATTLE, Jan. 8, 2013

[Desert Rat]

I heard that a second 787 is AOG as well in BOS due to fuel leak...

[KriVa]

Not anymore, unless there is a third one. If we're talking about the same ship, also JAL, it departed with 4 hours delay.

Reading the different sources, I think a thermal runaway is very plausible. Also, judging by some photos released by the NTSB already, the damage doesn't seem to be that extensive.
Thermal runaway in a LiIon battery is not unheard of, and although its not something you'd like to encounter in the air(or on the ground, for that matter.), it shouldn't be an aircraft threatening situation, if the developers developed the battery enclosure with a possible thermal runaway in mind. Judging by the NTSB pictures, they did exactly that.
It wouldn't be fun to encounter during the flight, but you'd be hard pressed to find a passenger who knew about it happening.
http://t.co/Amu6bo4E

EDIT: added a link to the NTSB photo.

[sn26567]

I heard that a second 787 is AOG as well in BOS due to fuel leak...

As written above, this was corrected after 4 hours during which the passengers were disembarked, and the plane departed again to Tokyo after repair.

EDIT: Oops, KriVa was 23 seconds faster than I...

[tsv]

FAA has just declared that 787 will not be grounded and is still safe to fly but as an additional safety pre-caution all Passengers must be supplied with a Parachute under the seat.

Source: waddaloadofbs.news.com

[KriVa]

Seems legit...

[sn26567]

More seriously, 787 latest: today ANA cancelled a domestic Dreamliner flight after the aircraft showed error message for braking system.

[sn-remember]

oh they'll put a parachute at disposal ? Ok then no fears !
,-)
About those Lithium batteries, hey they are used in the A380 also ..
Why worry ?
... surely they is a parachute under each seat of the A380 !

[RoMax]

About those Lithium batteries, hey they are used in the A380 also ..
Why worry ?
... surely they is a parachute under each seat of the A380 !

The FAA was worried about it because Boeing uses loads of them in their 787, while the A380 uses them for only two very minimal systems. Boeing did convince the FAA they could all do it in a safe way, but of course the FAA will now have their doubts about it.

[RoMax]

More seriously, 787 latest: today ANA cancelled a domestic Dreamliner flight after the aircraft showed error message for braking system.

I'm worried about the electrical system and the problems related to that. But that JAL fuel leak, this ANA breaking problem...even with the 787 that would have stayed unnoticed to the worldwide press without that Boston-fire incident. These aren't serious incidents, these occure daily.
There were about 2 years when we saw every little A380-incident on airliners.net and other aviation websites/forums/blogs and in the case of more incidents after eachother it made the worldwide press. The same is happening to the 787 now (tough a faster production ramp up results in more deliveries in the same time compared to the A380, so probably more incidents in the same time window as with the A380, relatively seen it will be about the same).

But that's how I think about it for most incidents, the numerous problems with the electrical system, that's something else, that's something that needs some really serious investigation.

This is Boeing's idea about it: http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engines-c ... uards-0109

[RoMax]

And the Chinese authorities are using the incidents as well. For months they are playing a political game with the FAA blocking the 787-certification without any communication about it from their side. Suddenly there is a more serious incident and they claim to be blocking the certification because of safety issues... They wouldn't start to certify the aircraft before Boeing, the FAA and NTSB give more information about the incidents. Guess what, after several weeks (months for some) the Chinese 787's (for Hainan and China Southern) are being taken out of storage and Boeing resumed flight testing with them. Now it's claimed that CAAC (the Chinese aviation authorities) has boarded one of the 787's for a certification flight (nothing about that in their public statements)... They don't seem to be that bothered about the safety, if they board the aircraft themself for certification.

[sn26567]

The second JAL 787 incident in Boston was caused by a fuel leak. JAL says that an open valve caused that leak. Fuel flowed from the centre tank to the left main tank, and from there into the surge tank and out through a vent. As mentioned before, passengers had to disembark and the flight could resume with a 4-hour delay

[Desert Rat]

FAA plans detailed scrutiny of 787 electrical issues


http://seattletimes.com/html/businesste ... 87faa.html

[MD-11forever]

Not really a good week for the 787, as another incident occured with an ANA Dreamliner:

All Nippon Airways Co., first to start commercial operations with the Dreamliner, is replacing a cockpit window on a 787 that cracked during a flight between Tokyo and Matsuyama in western Japan, spokeswoman Megumi Tezuka said today. An oil leak was found when another 787 landed at Miyazaki in southern Japan, she said. The plane returned to Tokyo after inspections.
The airline, the biggest operator of the Dreamliner, had two previous cases of window cracks on the jet, Tezuka said.

Source: Bloomberg

[RoMax]

Boeing is seriously f*cked up by the current digital media. Ok, their electrical issues are concerning, but all the rest, come on, that happens DAILY with numerous of aircraft around the world. There are currently 50 787's delivered and it's a new aircraft, it's quite normal incidents happen. But thanks to the digital media of the latest 5-10 years every single incident makes it to the news.
Boeing already claimed the amount of issues with the 787 is at the low end of the average when comparing to their other type launches (about the same level of the 777).

This is wat ANA says about the window cracks (mind they already have 17 787's operating):

The cracks appeared on the outermost of five layers that compose the cockpit windshield and did not endanger the aircraft, Ms. Tezuka said. Moreover, cracks of this kind are not unique to the 787 Dreamliner; cracks have appeared in other aircraft types operated by All Nippon from time to time.
“We do not see this as a sign of a fundamental problem,” with the aircraft, Ms. Tezuka said.

Some other interesting quotes form the New York Times:

Although the problems so far do not point to serious design flaws with the airplane, they represent an embarrassment to Boeing’s manufacturing ability, analysts have said.

Japan’s Transport Ministry, which oversees aviation safety in the country, said that the frequency of incidents on the Boeing 787 was not particularly higher than incidents reported for other aircraft.

The ministry, for now, did not see any need to raise alarm over the new aircraft’s safety, said Yasuhiro Yamada, an official in the aircraft safety unit.

Before the mishap Friday, there had been just six incidents on record involving Japanese airlines that caused a 787 Dreamliner to alter flight plans, according to the ministry. In two incidents in December, an All Nippon flight from Tokyo to Seattle turned back because of a temperature rise in the engine’s turbine, while another All Nippon 787 aircraft had a crack in its cockpit window. Nobody was injured in any of the six incidents, which were deemed by ministry officials to be minor.

“Even considering that the 787 is a new aircraft, which tends to come with initial glitches, we are not seeing a higher incidence of reported problems compared to other aircraft,” Mr. Yamada said.

Strange isn't it, I tought the 787 was the most dangerous aircraft around, having the worst EIS ever... (and the Japanese are quite strict in this, the Japanese authorities are known to be much stricter than the FAA and EASA)

Also about the 3 incidents with United and Qatar with a power distribution panel. These all happened with boards that all came from the same manufacturing lot (consisting of 16). That seems like a production failure of the supplier of these boards instead of a design failure.