BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

[Stij]

Metroliners! EAT used to fly 3 of them on behalf of Sabena at the end of the 70's, beginning of the 80's. If I was informed correctly they proposed to Sabena to expand this feeding so Sabena could focus on medium and long-haul but the spirits weren't ready yet and politics really run the show.

So many years later and the Metroliners are still around and so's EAT (OK, they moved), but no Sabena!

Cheers,

Stij

[BeOnTop]

I don't see why you would have less clients on the way back. All clients that left to AMS have to go back some day ... using the same path, isn't it ? If it's for long haul, you'll have return client are any time, not only in the evening.

@ acid-drop MIDT shows you that it is not the case: most of the clients go to Amsterdam in the morning and come back at night, but if you have a Carcassonne taking off at 9h00 at Maastricht, they'll take it.

[Acid-drop]

so the whole principle is having asymetric routing. It makes sense.

[tolipanebas]

most of the clients go to Amsterdam in the morning and come back at night, but if you have a Carcassonne taking off at 9h00 at Maastricht, they'll take it.

Excuse me???

With most long haul routes being once daily only, it means pax coming back to AMS from their long haul, are going to be on the return feeder flight in most cases indeed...

Provided the long haul flight will leave in the morning (and the connecting pax are thus on the outbound flight of your feeder), they'll return to AMS at night (and are thus going to be on the return flight of your feeder).

I can't believe what fundamental network errors I am reading here!

The idea you can have good loads in both directions by having an assymetric network offering is proven wrong numerous times! if you want to offer for instance Carcassone to pax from AMS on the way back, you will have to accept going out to AMS with a lot of empty flights on the first leg, unless you also offer more than just long hauls from AMS... Or do you expect pax on the return from a long haul flight to wait at AMS till later that evening to get a seat on the second return flight on your feeder routes, because the first flight was filled with pax going on to places like Carcassone?

That's btw one of the reasons why alliances were invented in the first place: to allow network carriers to increase loadfactors on routes where they have assymetric pax flows when on their own, thus filling seats which would otherwise have been empty in one direction!

You're about to reinvent problems which are known at least 20 years already and to which the best solution is known to: join an alliance! Welcome to reality, BoT.

[BeOnTop]

Liège-Guillemins is already quite well connected to FRA with a 3 daily ICE high speed train direct into the airport in 2h20. Or you are talking about munchen ? or Zurich ?

Let's compare:

Filght Departure 8h00
Arrival at FRA : 8h40
All registration, security and handling even done at LGG ...
Distance between parking and plane 200 meters ...

Train station (your time)*:
train Departure 8h13
Arrival 10h30
Transfert to new T3 A380 terminal in front of the T1 and T2: 3000 meters
All registration, security and handling: 1H30
It's 1h00 PM

All the A380 take off before 11h30 AM
Conclusion : you loose 1 day ...

* Not to mention that this train is not made for the luggages ...

[BeOnTop]

Sorry Top-lipanebas, "Carcassonne, Zadar, Biaritz" and more were not existing 20 years ago, thanks to Ryanair ... and I think that Emirates is not in any alliance too ... , you don't need to be in an alliance to make good business ... Alliance have been surely made for FFP ...

[tolipanebas]

Since the catchment area of BoT is supposed to be an area of around 1 hour from LGG, much of it is in Germany...

http://www.lufthansa.com/de/en/AIRail-just-like-flying

[tolipanebas]

Sorry Top-lipanebas, "Carcassonne, Zadar, Biaritz" and more were not existing 20 years ago, thanks to Ryanair ... and I think that Emirates is not in any alliance too ... , you don't need to be in an alliance to make good business ... Alliance have been surely made for FFP ...

Only for FFPs? If you really think that, you clearly haven't understood what an alliance is about.
They are not just about FFPs, they are about solving network system induced inefficiencies, regardless which airports you think of (be it Carcassone or other).

About EK as a stand alone network carrier: never wondered why they have a 'double daily' policy on many of their long haul routes??? It is precisely to avoid flying out half empty on one leg actually, just as I've explained.

Let's hope the 'real' BoT has better plans and understanding than what we see demonstrated here, because otherwise, they're toast in a minute.

[Acid-drop]

About the Liège-Guillemins to Frankfurt airport trip, here is the real ICE schedule (it's actually faster than i thought : 1h59) : dep 07:14 - arr 09:13
But yes indeed, it's A LOT more convenient to fly for the reasons you gave.

[Acid-drop]

Concidering luftansa will never invest in the Liège ICE link and concidering you seem to have good relation with luftansa team, I guess it makes sense ... if the walloon minister don't discover this is a short hop and ban it...

[euroflyer]

Flight Departure 8h00
Arrival at FRA : 8h40
All registration, security and handling even done at LGG ...
Distance between parking and plane 200 meters ...

Train station (your time)*:
train Departure 8h13
Arrival 10h30
Transfert to new T3 A380 terminal in front of the T1 and T2: 3000 meters
All registration, security and handling: 1H30
It's 1h00 PM

All the A380 take off before 11h30 AM
Conclusion : you loose 1 day ...

* Not to mention that this train is not made for the luggages ...

Hm, sorry, when have you last been in Frankfurt?

the new T3 is NOT the A380 Terminal. Its is just a new, additional terminal for all kind of planes and airlines. As far as I know LH and *alliance will stay in T1 (which is exclusive for them). The new"A0" or "A-plus" named gates just being built are however mainly A380 gates for LH as well as the part between T1 and T2 which have been built last year (C-gates with higher numbers). The way from the ICE train station to the T1 departure hall is around 10 minutes (actually it is a longer walk in BRU if you have to go to gate A72 ). If you have checked in before (mobile phone) or you use a automatic check-in machine you are done in a few minutes here and you usually can have crossed security in FRA in less than 30 minutes. From there to the new A-plus pier it is another 5 minutes walk. So it is easily all done in 1 hour. Do not know how you can calculate with 2h30 here (10h30 to 13h00 you said). Even if you have to go to the new T3 because you want to connect with a non-*-alliance airline you will be able to take the transfer right in front of the train station (between the station and T1 actually) and it will not take more than 15 or 20 minutes. So you maybe end up with 1h30 from arriving by ICE to being actually at the gate. Luggage might be a point, but LH has offered for some time the possiblity to check-in luggage in stations like Stuttgart, Cologne, Würzburg etcetera, if you go by train to FRA and than they do the transfer from train to plane, I guess they could do that from Liege-G. as well if there is a need? And if the railway track between Aachen and Cologne will be modernised the ICE will be even faster in Frankfurt. Sorry, I guess making connecting flights from LGG to FRA for whatever airline will not work in my eyes, the train is just far more convenient, but maybe I am wrong.

[tolipanebas]

No you're not wrong euroflyer, you're in fact spot on.

It just shows that whatever BoT is about, it definitely isn't about feeding 'the A380s of LH which they fear they will not be able to fill'.

LH will have no problem doing that and whatever additional commercialization of extra capacity LH needs in Belgium, SN will take care of that; and they will do it WITH full onward connectivity if I may add, like for instance on the brandnew codeshare to SIN (through both FRA and MUC).

[BeOnTop]

the train is just far more convenient, but maybe I am wrong.

I was at FRA has five times last year:

- no luggage rack
- 3X / 5 someone took my seat
- 2X /5 up all the route
- Non-stop ? = the train splits in two and a part goes somewhere else, and if you're in the wrong part ...

[BeOnTop]

If you have checked in before (mobile phone) or you use a automatic check-in machine you are done in a few minutes here and you usually can have crossed security in FRA in less than 30 minutes.

@euroflyer: For sure: 2% use this, explain that to your grand mother ...

@Top-lipanebas
And talkin' about security I have I heard this:
"The excessive arrogance of the Brussels and Frankfurt AIrports' security staff" but may be it's the problem of Brussels Airlines and in 3 month the LH problem...

[BeOnTop]

if you want to offer for instance Carcassone to pax from AMS on the way back, you will have to accept going out to AMS with a lot of empty flights on the first leg, unless you also offer more than just long hauls from AMS...

Not at all Lord Top-lipanebas, my first leg is MAA-AMS and then AMS-CRL than CRL-FRA, and return ...
I think clients will be very interested by landing at BRU south

For the Ryanair tickets, just call our call-center or ask our desk at Charleroi that should have done all the Ryanair boarding documents, and why not the handling ...
Don't forget the price ...
I'll make the same: legs AMS-CRL and FRA-CRL for one euro
I'm sure they'll come back ...

I like my idea ..., find me why it doesn't work

[Juulke]

Not at all Lord Top-lipanebas, my first leg is MAA-AMS and then AMS-CRL than CRL-FRA, and return ...I think clients will be very interested by landing at BRU south

Why do you say MAA-AMS? I thought you we're going to fly from LGG?

[BeOnTop]

We are in a discussion that are examples of "reverse hub and spoke" ... sir

[a380bigbeast]

We are in a discussion that are examples of "reverse hub and spoke" ... sir

Yeap. A lot of examples, but still no clear concept... Neither about reverse hub and spoke nor about what bot is all about.

[Conti764]

Not at all Lord Top-lipanebas, my first leg is MAA-AMS and then AMS-CRL than CRL-FRA, and return ...
I think clients will be very interested by landing at BRU south

I'm confused now... You'd just hop around all of Belgium, Holland and Germany on behalf of every major airline in those two latter countries?

Why would a passenger fly MAA-AMS with BeOnTop if they can do the same flight on KLM Cityhopper... The same for AMS-CRL and CRL-FRA when those same passengers you want to feed into larger carriers international flights can take that same KLM Cityhopper AMS-BRU for the first and LH's BRU-FRA for the latter and in a much more convenient way then with BeOnTop? Why would KLM or Lufthansa give up their own flights from and to BRU in favor of an airline flying their clients to CRL without any onwards connection? All this sounds so onlogical to me... It's like going against every logical busenissplan in aviation!

Sure, I can be wrong, but my little knowledge of aviation can't cope with what you are trying to do...

[tolipanebas]

Guys, the last few posts have really shown this member is not to be taken seriously any longer...

His posts have always been quite cryptic and confusing, but the more he tries to explain what he truely means, the more it becomes obvious he just doesn't have it.

Not only does he propose the weirdest of network mechanisms which don't make any sense at all from both a network nor from a yield point of view (FRA for 1 euro? Good luck!), but also does he lack any realistic insight in how the hubs operate from an infrastructural point of view (T3 at FRA is the A380 terminal???).

On top of that, he also seems to be engulfed by anger quite quickly, completely unable to withold himself, verbally agressing certain members which do not agree with him and dare to say so, and are able to make their point with FACTS (something he's failed to do so far).

It couldn't possibly be that BoT is in fact a certain member which left a few weeks ago after having made a fool of himself and thus loose all credibility, can it? Maybe somebody should compare IP addresses so tsee if or website's lunatic hasn't taken on a new profile and the name of a new Belgian project of which not much is known to be able to entertain us all with his self-proclamed largely superior insights and understandings of the aviation industry!?

Too bad the real BoT has announced they want to start with A318s, or you could once again promote the Q400NG as the ideal plane, mr BoT!