700 jobs threatened at Brussels Airlines?

[RoMax]

There's still quite some difference between the subsidies that RYR gets and the reduced taxation all Belgium-based airlines will have to pay...
Some people really don't understand the difference between giving one single airlines tens of millions of euro's subsidies each year to keep them here while they pay their taxes in Ireland, and reduced taxation for all Belgium-based airlines to return to a level playing field for all airlines;

[sean1982]

No there is no differnce at all. The subsidies FR gets is also in the form of reduced taxes, exactly the same thing. But anyway, the so called playing field will be level now. I would expect to see 80 million profit for Bru air next year (when taking fleet sizes into account) only then this tax money will be just

[airazurxtror]

reduced taxation for all Belgium-based airlines to return to a level playing field for all airlines;

Now that the playing field will be level, we'll see if Brussels Airlines fare better - or if was just an excuse for its losses.

[RoMax]

No there is no differnce at all. The subsidies FR gets is also in the form of reduced taxes, exactly the same thing. But anyway, the so called playing field will be level now. I would expect to see 80 million profit for Bru air next year (when taking fleet sizes into account) only then this tax money will be just

Oh yeay indeed, we are indeed talking about exactly the same kind of reduced taxes, how could I forget that...

[cnc]

face it, SN will go down if LH doesn't step in and fully support the airline

[RoMax]

face it, SN will go down if LH doesn't step in and fully support the airline

Oh well indeed, I didn't deny that. Isn't that by the way the reason for Beyond 2012-2013 (110 milion savings) and the pressure they were putting on the pilots and later cabin crew to achieve big savings overthere to get that 100 million credit from LH.
Yesterday I read an article about Lufthansa in German where the CEO of LH said that SN is on its way back to profit, but that it's not as far advanced in that proces as Austrian, yet.

LH waits until the right moment to fully step into SN, not before SN proved they can have a future under the LH Group support.

But that also means SN has to fight for equal rights for all airlines based in Belgium (including RYR), instead of facing disadvantages against one powerfull LCC. The EU believes the same, but their new rules give too many room (until 2020). SN wants to see results faster.

As SN says it themself (check the news), they never asked for state support of subsidies, they just want the exceptions (being RYR) to be taken away. How the government wants to do that, that's not SN's business.

What I found interesting is that someone from the unions said that not only the personnel will deliver an effort, also the government (that 30 million for the whole Belgian airline industry), Lufthansa (the loan of 100 million probably) but also Brussels Airport. How is that, will BRU give SN more advantages as home carrier? In that case I would say FINALLY, look at AMS, FRA, CDG, LHR, MAD, VIE, ZRH,... (I can go on), they all give their biggest home carrier much more advantages than BRU does to SN. (and please don't come up with RYR/CRL again, that's no longer 'giving advantages', that's letting them operate at the airport almost for nothing, and hope that you can earn your money with the non-aeronautical revenue)

[sean1982]

This new EU rule does not change anything for FR, as they will pass on the cost to each individual crew member.

[RoMax]

This new EU rule does not change anything for FR, as they will pass on the cost to each individual crew member.

Yes indeed, again one of their 'smart' measurements to put them above law. But that's not what the EU wanted when they launched these new rules.

[sean1982]

Off course not, but they could have foreseen it. Now other airlines are suffering (netjets for example) and rheir "target" will not be in the slightest affected. Does it put them above the law? Off course not, cause they are not doing anything illegal. Does it affect the employees? Off course, but to be honest, my wage will still be slightly above belgian average (compared with JAF) and I will have the added benefit of better social security.

[Atlantis]

What I found interesting is that someone from the unions said that not only the personnel will deliver an effort, also the government (that 30 million for the whole Belgian airline industry), Lufthansa (the loan of 100 million probably) but also Brussels Airport. How is that, will BRU give SN more advantages as home carrier? In that case I would say FINALLY, look at AMS, FRA, CDG, LHR, MAD, VIE, ZRH,... (I can go on), they all give their biggest home carrier much more advantages than BRU does to SN. (and please don't come up with RYR/CRL again, that's no longer 'giving advantages', that's letting them operate at the airport almost for nothing, and hope that you can earn your money with the non-aeronautical revenue)

I can be wrong in this but about Brussels Airport. Is it not that they are also one of the shareholders, at least a very small one? I don't know for sure.
But besides that, it is a win-win for Brussels Airport. To give some reduction and keep this airlines flying, and via this they still have their income. Otherwise it's a disaster. Losing your home carrier and what then with all those airlines who rely on SN to travel their pax through Europe. For sure, they will not come then anymore (after some time).

[RoMax]

Does it put them above the law? Off course not, cause they are not doing anything illegal.

That's not really what I ment. I just mean RYR always finds the slightest holes in the law to get more advantages than the rest. Good for them, but they are ruining other European airlines which deliver MUCH more value to the European job market and economy (except for Ireland of course).

But again these are endless discussions, these RYR against the rest discussion always end in the same...nothing but useless anger between eachother.

RYR is just a part of SN's problems, but they, at least, desserve an equal way of being handled. They don't want to be the airline that gets the exceptions, they just want the same rules for every airline. Just as other airlines want that in other countries. Will it save SN, will SN go bankrupt just because they don't get a part of that 30 million savings for Belgian airlines? Of course not, there are much more things that will have an influence on that.

[RoMax]

I can be wrong in this but about Brussels Airport. Is it not that they are also one of the shareholders, at least a very small one? I don't know for sure.
But besides that, it is a win-win for Brussels Airport. To give some reduction and keep this airlines flying, and via this they still have their income. Otherwise it's a disaster. Losing your home carrier and what then with all those airlines who rely on SN to travel their pax through Europe. For sure, they will not come then anymore (after some time).

I believe BRU indeed holds some %-points in SN, 3-4% or so? But in the past that clearly didn't make a difference for them(I'm talking about the previous CEO and several of 'his' managers who didn't seem to like SN at all...).

But it will indeed be a win-win situation. Airports don't get their big profits from aeronautical revenues anyway (not anymore), their big profits come from non-aeronautical business (and you see BRU investing in that as well with the Gateway project, leasing landside buildings at Brucargo,... but also things like shops and things like that are part of it). And if SN growes, BRU will see a huge climb in non-earonautical revenues, which will be much more valuable than what they may have lost on the aeronautical side.

btw, SN is said to book a loss of at least 50 million this year. That's still quite a bit less than what certain people said earliers this year (100 million). Last year they lost 80 million.

[sean1982]

Does it put them above the law? Off course not, cause they are not doing anything illegal.

That's not really what I ment. I just mean RYR always finds the slightest holes in the law to get more advantages than the rest. Good for them, but they are ruining other European airlines which deliver MUCH more value to the European job market and economy (except for Ireland of course).

But again these are endless discussions, these RYR against the rest discussion always end in the same...nothing but useless anger between eachother.

RYR is just a part of SN's problems, but they, at least, desserve an equal way of being handled. They don't want to be the airline that gets the exceptions, they just want the same rules for every airline. Just as other airlines want that in other countries. Will it save SN, will SN go bankrupt just because they don't get a part of that 30 million savings for Belgian airlines? Of course not, there are much more things that will have an influence on that.

Pardon for asking but why would traditional airlines provide much more to the jobmarket then Ryanair? Can we get an estimate how many people in europe are either direct or indirect employed through the presence of ryanair? A million? More? I also fail to see how these employed people do not contribute to economy in the respective country?

For the rest I'm happy bru air gets this money from the government. Now I hope the management can deliver on their claims

[RoMax]

Pardon for asking but why would traditional airlines provide much more to the jobmarket then Ryanair? Can we get an estimate how many people in europe are either direct or indirect employed through the presence of ryanair? A million? More? I also fail to see how these employed people do not contribute to economy in the respective country?

Well talking about just Belgium. Some time ago there was a big report about the contribution of Belgian aviation to the full Belgian economy and that for each airline, and airport. Out of that report it was very clear that CRL and RYR's contribution to the Belgian economy was minimal (LGG for exemple has MUCH higher contribution to the Belgian economy and job market). One passenger of SN, JAF or any other Belgian airline delivers much more jobs and contribution to the economy than a passenger of RYR. (you can probably find this somewhere on this forum)
I don't say RYR doesn't deliver a huge contribution to the European economy and the European job market (I know some people working for RYR, especially some Dutch people since I live partly in the Netherlands), but not in the same way as a local airline does that. That's smart of RYR as it's part of their succes (because operationally RYR isn't making any money, it's thanks to other smart things they achieve to make such huge profits, and I can't say anything else than that's briliant of them, tough I don't always agree with the way they do it), but it is like it is.

I really want competition in the European aviation, but I believe the current competition is too heavy. There are too many airlines and there is too many competition that's often not 100% fair (but of course 100% fair competition is a utopy).
But too heavy competition and too many airlines, that's not something the governments should handle, it's supposed to a free economy after all. But the governments should at least try to level the playing field as much as possible. Currently, that's not the case.

[sean1982]

Fair point, I agree

[Air Key West]

From what I understand, b.air puts pressure onto its pilots and flight attendants, and on the Belgian government to make savings.

What about putting pressure on Brussels Airport ? As another member of this forum already said it before me, when you do business properly you see to it that you get a good discount as a major customer (or you offer your most important client a major discount). When is b.air going to get a discount on airport fees form BRU ?

If b.air disappears, RYR will blackmail CRL and threaten to leave CRL for BRU and RYR will say to BRU : you've lost your major client, we are ready to leave CRL for BRU if BRU gives us a considerable discount on airport fees. Given the huge loss in revenues for BRU if SN disappears, BRU will be very tempted to give in to RYR.

Question : does BRU prefer to offer discounted airport fees to SN now or to RYR later, when thousands of jobs will have been lost ?

[RoMax]

What about putting pressure on Brussels Airport ? As another member of this forum already said it before me, when you do business properly you see to it that you get a good discount as a major customer (or you offer your most important client a major discount). When is b.air going to get a discount on airport fees form BRU ?

De Tijd mentions today that Brussels Airport is willing to do their part, probably in the meaning of discounts to their biggest user.

And as I said in one of my previous posts, that's about time. BRU isn't a cheap airport compared to surrounding airports. That doesn't always have to be a big problem if they can give something in return, but at our surrounding airports the biggest users get quite huge discounts or other advantages, SN didn't really get that in the past.

I believe the current management of Brussels Airport really gets the fact that SN and Star Alliance will be their future in the development of the passengers network. They have to do everything to support SN and their Star partners. If SN goes down, Star Alliance will not wait for a second to move the capacity to other European Star-hubs.

[airazurxtror]

One passenger of SN, JAF or any other Belgian airline delivers much more jobs and contribution to the economy than a passenger of RYR.

Why ? Because the SN (and even JAF) fares are much higher. Where a FR pax pays 50 euros, he would pay at least 250 euros at SN to go to the same place.
In fact, he would pay nothing to SN because he would rather do the same as he did before Ryaanair : go by train, bus or with his own car.
What I don't understand is how Brussels Airlines, with fares so much higher, still manage to make huge losses - where Ryanair - and easyJet - with much lower fares, make a healthy profit.
The playing field would really be level if the CEO of SN was on the same level as those of EZY or FR ... which is not the case, and by a long shot !

[RoMax]

Why ? Because the SN (and even JAF) fares are much higher. Where a FR pax pays 50 euros, he would pay at least 250 euros at SN to go to the same place.
In fact, he would pay nothing to SN because he would rather do the same as he did before Ryaanair : go by train, bus or with his own car.

It's not my conclusion, I'm just the messenger.

What I don't understand is how Brussels Airlines, with fares so much higher, still manage to make huge losses - where Ryanair - and easyJet - with much lower fares, make a healthy profit.

Airlines like RYR often don't make an operational profit. That's no secret.

The playing field would really be level if the CEO of SN was on the same level as those of EZY or FR ... which is not the case, and by a long shot !

What has the CEO to do with creating a level playing field? A level playing field doesn't mean the two companies need to have the exact same capabilities.

And once again, I don't want to turn this once again in a 'RYR against the rest topic'. I hoped the discussion ended, but apperently you don't share that opinion. Well I'm tired of it. It's not my intention to be one of the RYR-bashers on this forum, not at all, neither I want to be the big 'SN-fan'.

[BrusselsAirlines]

An association with fi Etihad would make much more sense with a brighter future towards the growing east. Imagine; Etihad Europe as a SERIOUS partnership.

And that is exactly what Lufthansa wants to avoid at Brussels.

Try to book a ticket to the East on any famous online booking site. Strange that you will never end up flying through FRA or MUC from BRU...very strange.

As long as the link to the Middle East and East is missing at BRU, the european network will never be profitable. Never.