A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Passenger
Posts: 7404
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by Passenger »

Another one those non-events, not endangering flight safety, has happened in Charlotte, USA yesterday: a small panel door of an A321 (flight AA-1910) felt onto a golf course.

"...According to American Airlines, the panel door covers the hydraulic servicing area, which is not a pressurized area of the aircraft. It would not cause a flight safety issue..."


WB TV is the main source for the coverage of this non-event, and they have shared 3 photo's:

http://www.wbtv.com/story/29834461/plan ... olf-course

Image
(Photo: Courtesy: Sonny Barrett, golf player at Green Meadows Golf Course, Charlotte)

Image
(Photo: Courtesy: Sonny Barrett, golf player at Green Meadows Golf Course, Charlotte)

Image
(Photo: Courtesy: Sonny Barrett, golf player at Green Meadows Golf Course, Charlotte)

Stij
Posts: 2304
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by Stij »

Almost a hole in one!!!

Cheers,

Stij

flightlover
Posts: 710
Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 08:26

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by flightlover »

It is a hole in one airbus though :D

Passenger
Posts: 7404
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by Passenger »


User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 41175
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by sn26567 »

In the Belgian AAIB report:

The in-flight and undesired detachment of the LH inboard flap/inboard seal plate was due to the failure of the attachment bolts of the pno 67279-7 plate adaptor. This was caused by the use of NAS 517 bolts instead of the Boeing-prescribed BACB30NN5K23.

A reader's comment in AvHerald:

This aircraft (ex N785AS) was owned and operated by Alaska Airlines during the period of time that Alaska's maintenance program had "widespread significant deficiencies” as later described in the NTSB report about Flight 261 (N963AS). It is at least possible that the incorrect bolts were installed by Alaska maintenance.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
Posts: 7404
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote:In the Belgian AAIB report:

The in-flight and undesired detachment of the LH inboard flap/inboard seal plate was due to the failure of the attachment bolts of the pno 67279-7 plate adaptor. This was caused by the use of NAS 517 bolts instead of the Boeing-prescribed BACB30NN5K23.

A reader's comment in AvHerald:

This aircraft (ex N785AS) was owned and operated by Alaska Airlines during the period of time that Alaska's maintenance program had "widespread significant deficiencies” as later described in the NTSB report about Flight 261 (N963AS). It is at least possible that the incorrect bolts were installed by Alaska maintenance.
That reader should have red the report. Page 8:

The previous operator, Alaska Airlines was contacted with the help of the US NTSB, and asked whether they had knowledge of the use of bolts different to the ones prescribed by the manufacturer for the fastening of the seal plate. They answered: “The Maintenance and Engineering team found no evidence that we currently have this hardware (note: NAS517 bolts) on our fleet. Additionally, they found no evidence that we previously had this hardware on our fleet or specifically on this aircraft.”

Excellent job by the Belgian AAIU!

Passenger
Posts: 7404
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote:
Passenger wrote:The press reports, the press calls it a serious incident, and you blame them -and those who agree with them- because the airworthiness was not at stake. No sir. It's the damned right of the press to report about aviation incidents that they regard as abnormal and unsafe. Not that long ago, a Dutch court even ruled that the press is indeed the public watchdog for such aviation incidents.
Sure ROFL. All they do is keep the misconceptions, that you support here so vividly, alive. But hey ... As long as the money from spectacular headlines rolls in ... Right? It has nothing to do with "being a watchdog" or even giving "correct information" (they cant even get the day right on this one), but generating money. Like every other commercial entity
Well, the final report states that it was a serious incident indeed. So it wasn't "a misconception" and a non-event, and the press was damned right to play public watchdog when an aircraft part falls out of the sky and authorities refuse to give details.

From the Final Safety Investigation Report:

Classification: Serious incident

Cause: The in-flight and undesired detachment of the LH inboard flap/inboard seal plate was due to the failure of the attachment bolts of the pno 67279-7 plate adaptor. This was caused by the use of NAS 517 bolts instead of the Boeing-prescribed BACB30NN5K23... Boeing engineering stated that there was no documentation generated by Boeing supporting the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts. Boeing have also reviewed the in-service communications and did not find any correspondence where Boeing allowed the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts in this installation."

Analysis: Boeing engineering stated that there was no documentation generated by Boeing supporting the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts. Boeing have also reviewed the in-service communications and did not find any correspondence where Boeing allowed the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts in this installation. Boeing has compared the NAS517 and BACB30NN5K23 bolts if used for the assembly of the 737 flap plate installation.
* These bolts are comparable in strength (160KSI-180KSI) and are similar in size.
* Boeing does not recommend using NAS517* instead of BACB30NN* bolts for exterior surface installations.
BACB30NN* is a titanium aluminum pigment coated fastener.
* NAS517 fastener is a Cadmium-plated alloy steel fastener. The Cadmium plating is a sacrificial coating (A corrosion prevention method in which a metal coating is subjected to preferential corrosion as a means of protecting the substrate metal).
* There is a potential for losing the Cadmium plating, which could result in corrosion and ultimately reducing bolt strength.
* The specified torque for the BACB30NN5K23 bolts in the 737 Flap plate installation is 150 in/lbs.
The close examination of the remaining bolt head shows the presence of corrosion and fatigue beach marks.
The maintenance program does not require a systematic removal of the plate adaptor pn 67279-7, and of the inboard flap, inboard seal plate. Therefore, these parts may remain installed for a very long period. Since the fasteners attaching the plate adaptor are hidden under the inboard flap, inboard seal plate, their deterioration can escape detection.


Safety message: AAIU(Be) advises the Belgian Part-147 Maintenance Training Organisations to use the content of this report to highlight the importance of following the IPC prescriptions when selecting fasteners.

Link - repeated:
http://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default ... _final.pdf

sean1982
Posts: 3260
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote:
sean1982 wrote:
Passenger wrote:The press reports, the press calls it a serious incident, and you blame them -and those who agree with them- because the airworthiness was not at stake. No sir. It's the damned right of the press to report about aviation incidents that they regard as abnormal and unsafe. Not that long ago, a Dutch court even ruled that the press is indeed the public watchdog for such aviation incidents.
Sure ROFL. All they do is keep the misconceptions, that you support here so vividly, alive. But hey ... As long as the money from spectacular headlines rolls in ... Right? It has nothing to do with "being a watchdog" or even giving "correct information" (they cant even get the day right on this one), but generating money. Like every other commercial entity
Well, the final report states that it was a serious incident indeed. So it wasn't "a misconception" and a non-event, and the press was damned right to play public watchdog when an aircraft part falls out of the sky and authorities refuse to give details.

From the Final Safety Investigation Report:

Classification: Serious incident

Cause: The in-flight and undesired detachment of the LH inboard flap/inboard seal plate was due to the failure of the attachment bolts of the pno 67279-7 plate adaptor. This was caused by the use of NAS 517 bolts instead of the Boeing-prescribed BACB30NN5K23... Boeing engineering stated that there was no documentation generated by Boeing supporting the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts. Boeing have also reviewed the in-service communications and did not find any correspondence where Boeing allowed the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts in this installation."

Analysis: Boeing engineering stated that there was no documentation generated by Boeing supporting the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts. Boeing have also reviewed the in-service communications and did not find any correspondence where Boeing allowed the use of NAS517 bolts instead of BACB30NN5K23 bolts in this installation. Boeing has compared the NAS517 and BACB30NN5K23 bolts if used for the assembly of the 737 flap plate installation.
* These bolts are comparable in strength (160KSI-180KSI) and are similar in size.
* Boeing does not recommend using NAS517* instead of BACB30NN* bolts for exterior surface installations.
BACB30NN* is a titanium aluminum pigment coated fastener.
* NAS517 fastener is a Cadmium-plated alloy steel fastener. The Cadmium plating is a sacrificial coating (A corrosion prevention method in which a metal coating is subjected to preferential corrosion as a means of protecting the substrate metal).
* There is a potential for losing the Cadmium plating, which could result in corrosion and ultimately reducing bolt strength.
* The specified torque for the BACB30NN5K23 bolts in the 737 Flap plate installation is 150 in/lbs.
The close examination of the remaining bolt head shows the presence of corrosion and fatigue beach marks.
The maintenance program does not require a systematic removal of the plate adaptor pn 67279-7, and of the inboard flap, inboard seal plate. Therefore, these parts may remain installed for a very long period. Since the fasteners attaching the plate adaptor are hidden under the inboard flap, inboard seal plate, their deterioration can escape detection.


Safety message: AAIU(Be) advises the Belgian Part-147 Maintenance Training Organisations to use the content of this report to highlight the importance of following the IPC prescriptions when selecting fasteners.

Link - repeated:
http://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default ... _final.pdf

It was a misconception that at any point the aicraft was in danger and so yes, pure scaremongering. In the lines off: Aircraft nearly crashes at it battles fierce winds at airport (and than you see a video of a go-around)

A serious incident is defined as:
An incident involving circumstances indicating that there was a high probability of an accident


An accident is defined as:
an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which:
b) the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure which:
dversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component


As this was only classed the as a serious incident, we can conclude that: yes the aircraft lost a piece. No, at no time was the aircrafts' structural strenght, performance and flight characteristics in danger and it didn't need major repair for it to get rectified. In other words, scaremongering. Official ICAO definitions btw, you're welcome :)

Passenger
Posts: 7404
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote:As this was only classed the as a serious incident, we can conclude that: yes the aircraft lost a piece. No, at no time was the aircrafts' structural strenght, performance and flight characteristics in danger and it didn't need major repair for it to get rectified. In other words, scaremongering.
So you agree that it was a serious incident as per the ICAO definitions? Good. That's exactly what I copy/pasted from the AAIU report, so there was no need to rectify my post.

But contrary to you, I don't think it's scaremongering when the press reports that a metal part of 5 kgs and 79cm x 40cm gets loose from an aircraft and falls into a domestic garden with people around.

sean1982
Posts: 3260
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote:
sean1982 wrote:As this was only classed the as a serious incident, we can conclude that: yes the aircraft lost a piece. No, at no time was the aircrafts' structural strenght, performance and flight characteristics in danger and it didn't need major repair for it to get rectified. In other words, scaremongering.
So you agree that it was a serious incident as per the ICAO definitions? Good. That's exactly what I copy/pasted from the AAIU report, so there was no need to rectify my post.

But contrary to you, I don't think it's scaremongering when the press reports that a metal part of 5 kgs and 79cm x 40cm gets loose from an aircraft and falls into a domestic garden with people around.
Its classed as serious cause whenever a piece comes off it is by definition classed that way (unless the performance flight characteristics or structural intercity changes which then makes it an accident). Whether the piece is one meter long or one cm, it would be classed serious. Whether that says much about the actual seriousness of the event is a different matter. Having been involved in 2 aircraft accidents .... THATS serious.

convair
Posts: 2039
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: A Boeing piece found near Liège.

Post by convair »

sean1982 wrote:
Its classed as serious cause whenever a piece comes off it is by definition classed that way...
And rightly so IMHO. You'd sure agree if it fell on your head. But I understand the safety of the aircraft nor of its passengers was at stake during that "serious incident".

Post Reply