Did Brussels Airlines hire 20 Lufthansa student pilots?

[Passenger]

Euhm, neither SN nor Ryanair uses p2f

Google has let you down again. Contracting is something completely different

Ryanair B737NG Type-Qyalification Program
€ 28,500 excluding VAT (for courses starting before 31 March 2015)
€ 29,500 excluding VAT (for courses starting on/after 01 April 2015)

https://pilot.cae.com/programs/ryanair.aspx

Seems to be very very near to "you pay to fly". Or perhaps that "external company" is just abusing the Ryanair logo...

- -

edited:

Press release VNV - Dutch Commercial Pilots Association - 3th December 2013: "...Bij Ryanair is pay-to-fly onderdeel van het verdienmodel", zegt Klaas-Jeroen Terwal van de VNV. "We hebben niks tegen prijsvechters, maar wel tegen dit soort slechte arbeidsomstandigheden.". Translated : "Within Ryanair, the pay-to-fly model is part of the business model..."

Source (I haven't seen their press release on http://www.vnv.nl):
http://nos.nl/artikel/581883-bond-jonge ... ebuit.html

[jan_olieslagers]

Negative. "Pay to fly" is not the same thing as "pay to get your type rating". There are today only few airlines where a newly hired pilot must not pay for the type rating, if isn't already available. Or so I have understood from aviators' forums.

And contracting is yet another matter, it determines the type of contract one works under, not what is paid for and what is not. Contracting is not limited to pilots' jobs, in IT it is at least as common, and in financial consulting; I understand it is spreading in other trades too, like engineering. Its success comes from the all too greedy authorities, either tax or social security or both.

PS I know this is again touching on delicate political matters - that is why I even don't begin mentioning Polish and Bulgarian construction workers - I hear some of these have contractor's status, too.

[Passenger]

Negative. "Pay to fly" is not the same thing as "pay to get your type rating". There are today only few airlines where a newly hired pilot must not pay for the type rating, if isn't already available. Or so I have understood from aviators' forums.

Press release VNV - Dutch Commercial Pilots Association - 3th December 2013:

"...Bij Ryanair is pay-to-fly onderdeel van het verdienmodel", zegt Klaas-Jeroen Terwal van de VNV. "We hebben niks tegen prijsvechters, maar wel tegen dit soort slechte arbeidsomstandigheden.".

Translated : "Within Ryanair, the pay-to-fly model is part of the business model..."

Source (I haven't seen their press release on http://www.vnv.nl):
http://nos.nl/artikel/581883-bond-jonge ... ebuit.html

[sean1982]

You show again how little you actually know abou aviation and how much Google (and the unions when they serve you right. Im sure your emperor BDW wont be happy with that) is/are your friend(s)

The VNV is just like you, commenting on the taste of broccoli, without ever having tasted it and also are arrogant enough to even believe their own lies
(The article you refer to is from december 2013 btw, but then again, Google doesnt care about dates)

Pay-to-fly is per definition a scheme were pilots have to pay for line training, on other words for experience on a real aircraft while carrying fare paying passengers.

This comes from the website of your good friends, the european cockpit association

During line training the pilot operates as a regular pilot together with a line training captain on a normal revenue-earning flight. He/she is now a fully productive crew member. When the airline demands the pilot to pay for this line-training (up to € 50.000)1 instead of earning a salary this is referred to as “Pay to Fly” (P2F)2 or “self sponsored line training”.

You are nothing more than a plain liar

For everyone's info. Airlines that are using or have used p2f in the past are:

Flyniki
Royal air maroc
Tunisair
BMI
Lionair
Air asia
Etc ...

[Passenger]

The Independent newspaper:

"...CAE, a training company currently contracted to provide training for Ryanair, has charged an "assessment fee" of £260 to interview pilots for selection. This year, training in the Ryanair type-rating programme cost up to €28,500 (£24,000) plus VAT – according to an advert posted online.

"... One pilot with experience of training for Ryanair, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said: "They say that it is a cost, not a price, but they make money from it. They try to sell training regardless of the opportunities... the more pilots there are, the more money they make. These pilots aren't necessarily the best, but the ones that can afford it."

"... Evert van Zwol, chairman of the interim council of the Ryanair Pilot Group – which is not recognised by the airline – says: "We have a very strong feeling the total charges are higher than the actual costs. It's probably not illegal, but is it something we want to endorse as a society? I don't think it's right to have pilots pay all the costs." He added that, in addition, Ryanair pilots are mostly self-employed and get fewer hours in winter months.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/new ... 28635.html

[sean1982]

That is totally irrelevant. Yes, pilots in FR pay for a type rating like with a lot of other airlines around the world (JAF being one) but it is not p2f. Again, you are a liar

(And please stop referring to articles that are 2 years old as they are also totally out of date)

It's totally obvious btw you want this topic, which is very inconvenient for your hate campaign, to be closed asap.

[Stij]

Keep your cool!

One more insult / provocation and the topic is closed.

Stij

P.S. Can't moderator work 1 day in his garden, without finding the complete forum full of useless agressive posts???

[sean1982]

I thought when pointing out someone is plain lying is not agressive, rather just pointing out the truth.

[Boeing767copilot]

Also on Belgian radio VRT:

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/economie/1.2334476

[airazurxtror]

"... Evert van Zwol, chairman of the interim council of the Ryanair Pilot Group – which is not recognised by the airline – says: "We have a very strong feeling the total charges are higher than the actual costs. It's probably not illegal, but is it something we want to endorse as a society? I don't think it's right to have pilots pay all the costs." He added that, in addition, Ryanair pilots are mostly self-employed and get fewer hours in winter months.

Evert van Zwol :
Now : Ryanair Pilot Group (RPG), Air France KLM
Earlier : Vereniging van Nederlandse Verkeersvliegers/Dutch Airline Pilots Association,
Vakcentrale MHP, Pensioenfonds Vliegend Personeel KLM

An AF-KLM pilot who is at the same time chairman of the Ryanair Pilot Group : the least one can say is that his impartiality is not obvious.
A "feeling", however strong, is not a proof.
"It's probably not illegal" : thank you, Evert.

As regards pilot's pay, I have just read about a pilot (Robert Dedman), who wrote :
"I was waiting for a chance to get the rating on a DC4. I was offered 4.75 cents per statute mile - straight-line distance, so if you were put in a holding pattern - tough : points A to B only !"
OK, it was in Congo back in the 1960s, but is not it a good idea ?

[simulator]

@boeing767copilot : thanks for the link, redirecting this thread back on tracks....
So if I understand it correctly, these German pilots are already type-rated on A320, reason why they have been chosen....
Next question.....how long does it take to train a 'Belgian' pilot fresh from school (BAFA, CAE, ...) to become qualified on A320?
Could Brussels Airlines not foresee the shortage of pilots this month and work pro-active (with the Belgian schools?)....?
I find it all a bit 'fishy' and feel sorry for the Belgian candidates....

[sean1982]

"... Evert van Zwol, chairman of the interim council of the Ryanair Pilot Group – which is not recognised by the airline – says: "We have a very strong feeling the total charges are higher than the actual costs. It's probably not illegal, but is it something we want to endorse as a society? I don't think it's right to have pilots pay all the costs." He added that, in addition, Ryanair pilots are mostly self-employed and get fewer hours in winter months.

Evert van Zwol :
Now : Ryanair Pilot Group (RPG), Air France KLM
Earlier : Vereniging van Nederlandse Verkeersvliegers/Dutch Airline Pilots Association,
Vakcentrale MHP, Pensioenfonds Vliegend Personeel KLM

It's kind of unfair that SN is being target fired for this as JAF has been doing this for YEARS with cadets from the KLM flight school (yes, the very school that Evert van Zwol his airline and VNV are connected to), covering their summer season with temporary one summer contracts for 30.000EUR

[Boeing767copilot]

I doubt the reaction of Geert Sciot is correct. I tought the Germans are ab initio's with a type rating A320.

[jan_olieslagers]

Next question.....how long does it take to train a 'Belgian' pilot fresh from school (BAFA, CAE, ...) to become qualified on A320?

And what does it cost?

[epsilon]

@boeing767copilot : thanks for the link, redirecting this thread back on tracks....
So if I understand it correctly, these German pilots are already type-rated on A320, reason why they have been chosen....
Next question.....how long does it take to train a 'Belgian' pilot fresh from school (BAFA, CAE, ...) to become qualified on A320?
Could Brussels Airlines not foresee the shortage of pilots this month and work pro-active (with the Belgian schools?)....?
I find it all a bit 'fishy' and feel sorry for the Belgian candidates....

Would take about 4 months maximum I think.
About 4-6 weeks for the typerating (but you can do it faster as well) and then max 2 months line training, can be shortened as well depending on sectors required, training rosters etc.
Usually the problem is training capacity on the line training side.

[Passenger]

Also on Belgian radio VRT:

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/economie/1.2334476

Translated:

Brussels Airlines has temporary engaged 20 German pilots. The Belgian pilot schools don't like this move, because it's difficult for their graduated students to find a job.

The 20 pilots are coming over from mother company Lufthansa because Brussels Airlines hasn't enough own pilots. They will also fly the new Brussels Airlines Airbus aircaft.

This decision is facing critics from the Belgian aviation schools who have problems to find a job for their graduates. But Geert Sciot, spokesman for Brussels Airlines, says that these Belgian pilots don't have the right profile. "We are temporary in need of pilots with a license for Airbus aircraft, and we don't find that experience on the Belgian market. I can assure the Belgian schools that we will continue to engage young Belgian pilots. But at this moment, we really need experienced German pilots", Geert Sciot says.

[EBBRbase]

I'm glad it finally made the headlines. As a Belgian airline, that costs us yearly 19 million euros, and that is constantly presenting itself as real 'Belgian', it's unacceptle to discriminate own Belgians in favor of foreigners. Those Lufthansa pilots have only received their A320 rating, but that's quite it for the experience part of the story.

Since autumn they've been discussing on how to solve the pilot shortage for the upcoming summer season. One of the possibilites was to hire Belgian pilots, but that plan never made it, for whatever reason. (Might be problems with their unions as they think it's unfair to employ new people directly on the Airbus, while the other pilots who've been flying for many years with the company are still on the Avro).

Anyway, apart from the discussion why they exclude Belgian pilots, this is not good publicity for our 'Belgian' airline...

[sn26567]

Exactly. The expansion plans of Brussels Airlines were well known for months, if not years. Enough time to make a smooth transition from the Avro to the A32S. Experienced Avro pilots should have been prepared to fly the A32S, especially since it is known for years that the Avro will disappear from the SN fleet at the latest in 2016. That would have avoided hiring foreign pilots.

[RoMax]

There is no point in training Avro pilots to the A32S to cope with the expansion, to have a lack of Avro pilots after that (at least until the end of this summer season there is an expansion of the Airbus fleet, but no reduction in the Avro fleet). You don't invest a lot of money in training lots of new Avro pilots when you retire the type just a few months later. So an interim solution for the Airbus fleet was needed, including contracting and these German pilots. Lufthansa flight academy trained them, but there was no place for them within LH for the time being, seems like a perfectly normal solution for SN to hire them.

Why not hiring Belgian ab-initio pilots? If SN has to pay for their type ratings instead of taking the Germans who already had their type-rating, seems like a logical cost-driven decision.

[Pocahontas]

Indeed, and after two years they'll be gone, freeing up my space on the airbus. If they would have hired Belgian ab-initio's, it would have been on the Avro, untill the complete phase out.