SN Brussels Airlines to fly from Charleroi CRL ?

[Conti764]

BRU management knows that as well, so they'd probably give SN management a shoe in the a** if they'll try to twist BRU mgt's arm in this matter.

Who cares what BRU management may think of it? I'd pay them just €10 after JAN 1st... then what?
In the end the power is with the customer, and the customer is SN here.

IF SN only pays BAC €10 per pax, what are BAC going to do? Halt all their flights by positioning a car in front of the plane and thus kill their main customer? Close off all check-ins for all SN flights and thus create complete and utter chaos inside the terminal? Not very likely, IMHO, especially not knowing there will be a whole lot of partners of SN, all customers of BAC too, which could easily be rallied behind this too.

More likely is that BAC would take some sort of legal action against SN, something which can take years, yet in the end they're going to have to come to a compromise anyway and any compromise will be a better deal for SN than what they have now.

Agreed, but I was merely pointing out that using Antoines 'invitation' probably won't help SN get lower taxes, nor will make them profitable

[Conti764]

Isn't it unbelievable how people read one sentence and already assume the content of all the rest?
I get that on 30% of my post, where I have to reply to things that are extrapolated at will and have nothing to do with the actual content or fundamental idea.

Wrong, Mister Know-it-all, I have red Tolipanebas' comments like I always do (in stead of 'some others' posts here they are worth reading) and was merely pointing out that it wouldn't be 'case solved' so easily. On the contrary, it is you who is highlighting one sentence out of a complete post in which I give my arguments why using Antoines 'invitation' probably wouldn't do much good to SN getting lower taxes at BRU.

In that very same post I acknowledge BAC should give lower rates to SN as it is the home carrier which brings in other companies as well, but you would only know that if you would have red my entire post and not just one sentence.

[tolipanebas]

Tolipanebas,
Where have you found that bag of common sense?

ROTFL...
Who would have guessed it: the 2 of us agreeing on something!
Now I must definitely see a doctor ugently, yet tomorrow is Sunday!

As you say, BRU needs SN and vice versa.
For BRU, it's of much greater interest to support SN with tax discounts than to invest hundreds of millions in growing the airport further. A little less revenue from taxes, a little more revenue from parking and shop rentals.

Indeed, yet sadly BAC's business concept is still so 1990s, mainly counting on direct taxes levied against their customers (i.e. the airlines), rather than focussing on earning their money via ancilary sale opportunities to its ever growing number of users (i.e. the pax).

I admit it must be quite comfortable for BAC to be pretending they're still in the 1990s and thus simply charge each pax a ridiculously high fee, rather than massively cut those fees and actually start to earn their money from personal services sold to those pax, but it is a process which BAC should be forced to go through nevertheless and it needn't be a financial drama even as ancilary revenue sources are HUGE for a hub airport like BRU, espacially if SN can indeed live up to their promise to turn the airport into an important STAR ALLIANCE hub, something which will be much easier if it can see their airport taxes drop by several tens of millions of euro...

As such, it would be the most obvious thing for SN to go to BRU management and dictate how business is done.

As you say, they need to DICTATE it, because BAC is never going to offer it by itself.
Compare it to all the talk about 'activation' of unemployed people... BAC is currently an unemployed, living off the wellfare state, and needs to be told to go out and earn a living himself: the only way to make him do that, is to cut his allowance off, otherwise, there's he's not going to get out of that lazy seat, is he?

Oh, and if needed, SN should use the popular press to inform the wider public they're fighting hard to lower skyhigh taxes as BRU, so pax can allegedly get a better deal. You know, the MOL style, with lots of hyperbole in the press releases on the matter, constantly talking about "insanely high taxes, overpaid politically appointed managers getting millions per year for doing absolutely nothing, wasteful spending at all levels, squeezing pax as if they are lemons etc...'
In a period where budget cuts and austerity are the talk of the day and get wide popular support even, that will make BRU's case look good, I am sure! NOT!

I think that they just don't have the guts for it and they're too afraid to spoil the nice relationship built with BRU top management along the many restaurant visits.

All the money paid to BAC under the form of airport taxes is an expenditure where HUGE cuts can be made. If SN's management are anyhow serious about putting this airline on a diet, they can not affort not to slash it: it's long overdue and the single most important expenditure that can still be massively slashed. It's the only piece of low hanging fruit still left on the tree, and it's hanging there off the lowest branch of them all even!

[Acid-drop]

Hidden agenda is not so hidden anymore.
BRU must go and everything to walloon side, sponsored indirectly with Flemmish money.
Free movements for all.. Belgocontrol is making enough money.. right*

Yes, like the flemish harbour and train network in the past. You are also paying a new bridge in sicilly and a water-treatment plant in poland, do you care ?
Don't forget that the best way to limit money transfer is to make sure the economy is good on both sides of the country. Sabotage is not the solution.
Plus, there is not reason to limit the national airline into one region or one airport only.

Unless SN is currently already successfull in fighting off easyJet at BRU, what gives you confidence that SN could pick a successful fight against Ryanair?

Jetairfly has set a base at Charleroi and is not unsuccessfully challenging Ryanair to Morocco, south of Spain, Canary islands, Greece and many other destinations.
Incidentally, one does not often speak of Jetairfly, but it seems to be a well-run company, expanding short and long haul, and it has a young fleet - claims to have the youngest Belgian fleet.

Indeed, and some business is also good in OST and LGG.
Of course this is very particular business that don't need the hub and spoke system, so it's only a very small amound of the trafic of SN.
10% of the trafic is very raisonnable, a few a/c based there would make sense. This idea is not new and has been mentioned many times on this forum.

Now last point that most of you seems to like to discuss, and which I concider as topic hijacking btw, is the problematic of cost at BRU. It is not new that BRU is too expensive for some kind of trafic, and that it would impact the growth potential of both BRU and the airlines, at least for that particual kind of trafic, but don't forget that it will be almost impossible for a private company as BRU, which objective is to make money, to compete with a public company as BSCA, which main objective is to generate new jobs. Totally different aproach.

Hi,
Sending some planes to crl will also result in north belgians going for ams thus ...result in loses for both sn and bru,...

Maybe, maybe not ... if you live in the very north of the country it's a possibility, like it is a possibility for me to drive to CGN or DUS already, that's life. I think the fear of the "unknown", the cost of parking, and the trafic jams (stress) are imho the main 3 factors for the kind of trafic we are talking about, mainly for families on holiday.

[Squelsh]

Yes, like the flemish harbour and train network in the past.

.
Indeed - as you mention yourself- we do not live in those days anymore. (?)
.

You are also paying a new bridge in sicilly and a water-treatment plant in poland, do you care ?

Oh don't worry I do, I'm Flemmish.. If you work for something and thus earn it.. You care for it more..
.
Provide a B if you mention an A, btw.. ie a link, a telex, name of a village/corp(?) whatever.. something

[Squelsh]

It is not new that BRU is too expensive (..) for a private company as BRU, which objective is to make money, to compete with a public company as BSCA, which main objective is to generate new jobs. Totally different aproach.

Can't believe I missed this open goal at first.
Aside of the 'topic-change' (not a 7500), the trail of money is always at the core, whether you like it or not. The main objective of any private company (NV / SA) is to make money, again whether you like it or not.
.
The specification I see in above quote reminds me of Soviet Russia times comrade. Ye all work in the public sector now.
.
Oh wait, what are those two letters here.. S A ?

[fretn]

Hpw is that an open goal, everyone knows that without subsidies CRL would look a lot different.

[JAF737]

Unless SN is currently already successfull in fighting off easyJet at BRU, what gives you confidence that SN could pick a successful fight against Ryanair?

Jetairfly has set a base at Charleroi and is not unsuccessfully challenging Ryanair to Morocco, south of Spain, Canary islands, Greece and many other destinations.
Incidentally, one does not often speak of Jetairfly, but it seems to be a well-run company, expanding short and long haul, and it has a young fleet - claims to have the youngest Belgian fleet.

True, but do not forget JAF mainly fills its planes with people who booked package holidays with Jetair... Not difficult to fill your planes then.

In the case of Brussels Airlines... I, for one, would not drive the extra hour to CRL to take a plane at the same price I can take a plane at BRU.

Actually, Jetairfly has regular flights from CRL that have nothing to do with the TO (such as our flights to Morocco, Algeria, Turkey...) and they are pretty much full all the time as well. So yes, it's another story than filling in planes with tourists and yes, it is difficult. But it's successful up to now. People like it and they love CRL for the very obvious reason that it's much easier and faster than BRU. The choice is easily made for me too...

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Actually, Jetairfly has regular flights from CRL that have nothing to do with the TO (such as our flights to Morocco, Algeria, Turkey...) and they are pretty much full all the time as well. So yes, it's another story than filling in planes with tourists and yes, it is difficult. But it's successful up to now. People like it and they love CRL for the very obvious reason that it's much easier and faster than BRU. The choice is easily made for me too...

CRL much easier and faster ??? How,please explain you can't mean the boarding procedures, check in or luggage control...
CRL has expensive parking and is further away from the north..
CRL has only ONE thing better than BRU and that's a reason of subsidies...

Flights to Algeria,Turkey and Marocco has nothing to do with travel agents I agree but there's a constant and high demand on low cost fares for the migrated people/new belgians...
At CRL they can even attract these pax from northern france...
( wonder why the flights to pristina/kosovo leave from BRU BTW, these people are more flanders orientated?

Don't see SN to try to take a part of these flights..

As said before, as they are both NV/SA let them fight with the same weapons ( taxes ) and we'll see..
What a country competing governments/airports in a country with the size of a pea.. nuts IMO..

CX-B

[Conti764]

Plus, there is not reason to limit the national airline into one region or one airport only.

There is when you have a national airline with the size and history of Brussels Airlines. In a country like Belgium, where you can drive East to West in roughly two hours, you can concentrate the flights of your national airline at the biggest and most important airport in Belgium, especially given the fact that SN is highly codeshare-dependant.

If European flights wouldn't be such money bleeding flights and SN would be in a good shape, you might consider basing one or two aircraft at CRL to fly from that airport, but all in all in a country the size of Belgium, it still would be ridiculous. Take KLM for example, much bigger and healthier then SN, and they only from AMS in the Netherlands.

10% of the trafic is very raisonnable, a few a/c based there would make sense. This idea is not new and has been mentioned many times on this forum.

[/quote]

It is a utterly useless idea to split operations between BRU and CRL. What 10% is reasonable? What 10% are you going to move to CRL? Many people would still fly competing airlines from BRU. I'd only consider flying from CRL if I can fly for €60 return on FR for example, but if fares are roughly the same from BRU and CRL, I prefer BRU over CRL anytime. Unless SN gives people a reason to fly from CRL, they won't just follow the airline. And that reason would be to offer much lower rates then competing airlines at BRU, again bleeding money.

[Conti764]

Hpw is that an open goal, everyone knows that without subsidies CRL would look a lot different.

It would be unfair to blame the Walloon government for doing what they are supposed to do: taking care of their own people.

It is a shame, however, that the Flemish government is only slowly recognizing the economical value of BRU to its economy and is only doing so with an indirect START-plan. Diabolo is a federal project (NMBS) and for now the START plan only seems to be sending heaps of busses half empty to the airport.

I'd say, give subsidies to BRU to allow companies using BRU as home base (they could demand a certain % of flights to be operate from BRU) to operate way cheaper from the airport... This way SN could get lower taxes and also JAF and FQ could strengthen their position at the airport. In turn it would attract more and more passeners and traffic to BRU.

Secondly, getting to and from the aiport should be much easier and quicker.

[Acid-drop]

How is that an open goal, everyone knows that without subsidies CRL would look a lot different.

Why do you use the word subsidies as negative when it's doing exactly what it should : attracting companies to create jobs. I'm pretty sure they are happy with the result.
S.A. or not S.A., it's clear for all the main goal of the walloon region is to create jobs, and it works quite nicely, which should make everybody happy, if wallonia is better, the whole country is better.

Take KLM for example, much bigger and healthier then SN, and they only from AMS in the Netherlands.

Yes, it is like that, but isn't it a mistake ? The market is there and ryanair has proved it. Other companies have proved also that there is a market even in LGG and OST. And all this is something SN could have done with the right fare in the right airport. They didn't want to, maybe it was a mistake, maybe they should now rethink, maybe they will not ...

It is a utterly useless idea to split operations between BRU and CRL. What 10% is reasonable? What 10% are you going to move to CRL? Many people would still fly competing airlines from BRU. I'd only consider flying from CRL if I can fly for €60 return on FR for example, but if fares are roughly the same from BRU and CRL, I prefer BRU over CRL anytime. Unless SN gives people a reason to fly from CRL, they won't just follow the airline. And that reason would be to offer much lower rates then competing airlines at BRU, again bleeding money.

I have personnally no preference, CRL is now a decent airport. I still fly 80% of my flights from BRU, but it's only because of the destination choice.
Many holiday people would choose the closest or the cheapest, without thinking more. By Using a smaller airport, half of the benefit would go to the airline and the other half to the pax. This model is already working, now SN can decide what they want.

if i'm not mistaken, the walloon region is a shareholder of SN (only 2%), so it does make sense they suggest something to make them make more money (or loose less).

[sn26567]

May I remind that Sabena has been flying from ANR (which is closer to BRU than CRL), LGG and CRL. OK, not with B737s but with regional aircraft. If my memory serves me well, I think Sabena also flew from OST.

[airazurxtror]

CRL much easier and faster ??? How,please explain you can't mean the boarding procedures, check in or luggage control...
CRL has expensive parking and is further away from the north..
CRL has only ONE thing better than BRU and that's a reason of subsidies...
as they are both NV/SA let them fight with the same weapons ( taxes ) and we'll see..

Yes Lex, and you know it :
- Charleroi is easier : you can go from the door of the aircraft to the exit door of the terminal in less than 5 minutes, whereas it takes some 15 or 20 minutes at Brussels if you dock at A.
- the security check is not slower at CRL - and it is often more cheerful
- the parking fee at Charleroi is about the same than at Brussels, and perhaps even a little bit less expensive.
- Charleroi is further away from the North - but nearer the South : not all people that fly live in Brussels or Antwerp !
- the fact that taxes are lower at Charleroi is just the point of the discussion; it's why Ryanair and Jetairfly have chosen it as a base and why it should be considered by Brussels Airlines.
- there is no reason why the taxes (meaning the fee paid by the airline) should be the same everywhere; if an airport manage to have a lower cost price, it's only natural that he demands a lesser fee from the airline. It's competition ...
- as for subsidies, Charleroi (and the Region) abide by the rules of the EU. If a Region chooses to encourage employment in that way, and does it legally, you can't object, can you ?

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

- Charleroi is easier : you can go from the door of the aircraft to the exit door of the terminal in less than 5 minutes, whereas it takes some 15 or 20 minutes at Brussels if you dock at A.

Can't nothing but agree on this point.. ( only when it rains I should prefer BRU )

- the security check is not slower at CRL - and it is often more cheerful

I had this year a quite other experience ( all 4 times - busy period I guess )
One time I even was assaulted by a guy because I was standing at the wrong side.. just after they obeyed me to stand there for heaven's sake .. just a bad day probably ..

- Charleroi is further away from the North - but nearer the South : not all people that fly live in Brussels or Antwerp !

Luckily not, it's crowded enough

But indeed, CRL lacks a really good connection for the northern people, I will try to skip CRL next years because the distance is way too far.. I will check DUS/HNH for the FR/AB flights..
But the thing is that for LCC we only have one option, MST/EIN/LGG and even DUS haven't the same range of given desti's..
But the connections for BRU still lacks also a bit..

- the fact that taxes are lower at Charleroi is just the point of the discussion; it's why Ryanair and Jetairfly have chosen it as a base and why it should be considered by Brussels Airlines.

I can't agree with this one.. because this isn't what SN need, SN needs to operate closest and from the 'main' airport of Belgium, not just for standing but also because of the international-meaning long haul connections,
the *A and what they certainly don't need is a competition with FR, setting their standards to LCC,.. better stay away of them, giving/forming their own strong points.. connections and service out of a main airport.. with multi flights a day..
Virgin Express was a lesson, no need for another I guess..
Or a prop connection between ANR-OST-CRL with BRU or choppers like in the old days haha

- as for subsidies, Charleroi (and the Region) abide by the rules of the EU. If a Region chooses to encourage employment in that way, and does it legally, you can't object, can you ?

Indeed, it's great for the region and aviation in Belgium also.. just pity that IMO that one government provide subsidies for aviation , another government is making BRU airport smaller because of some ** rules and another government won't invest in aviation at the regions... and this all in '1' country of the size of a pea..
But that's what we had voted for no ??

Meaning, I won't FR out of CRL but some support for BRU would be welcome..

Thinking by these of CRL willing to take over the status of BRU haha..
For me, let both airports grew but with their own purposes..
CRL isn't a main airport, it's RYANAIR city and luckily we'll have one ! (and of the biggest )

Just my view airazur.. from a north/dutch border guy haha

See U on sunday @ BRU !

CX-B

[Acid-drop]

don't be affraid of anything, from the begining it was clear that CRL would never be a hub and spoke. Different business, different destinations, different clients, and that's one of the reason of the success, they created a new market instead of stealing one.
SN has only a small number of flight in that market, that's why it never suffered too much because of ryanair, and that's probably why it never got too interested in CRL. But now with some financial problems .... it could be different.

Now, it can be CRL, it could be antwerp also ... or more ...
Many people in Belgium need to fly to London, and the schedule in BRU is plain stupid with almost the same schedule as BA.

[BrightCedars]

I don't think it's a good idea to move some flights from BRU to CRL for the following reason.

We are of course talking about flights to sunny or very touristic destinations i.e. the form Virgin Express network or something close to that. Say FAO, AGP, NCE, that sort of thing.

The thing is there are already carriers offering those destinations or nearby ones from CRL or elsewhere.
The most cost conscious customers have already moved to those flights and those who remain did so because they want the convenience of BRU for their personal criteria, even if it costs them a bit more. I think what's important is for SN to understand how much can that bit more be and align their price mix around that.

[regi]

Just a remark:
BA flies from Heathrow, Stansted, London City and Gatwick.

OK, SN isn't BA. And Brussels isn't London.

But assume they would accept the offer from Charleroi? Interesting idea.
( and start up flights again from Antwerp, Liège and Ostend - why not? )

We'll see.

[cnc]

Just a remark:
BA flies from Heathrow, Stansted, London City and Gatwick.

OK, SN isn't BA. And Brussels isn't London.

because the lack of slots at LHR BA is operating from LGW!
BA at STN is new to me and at LCY its not BA but CJ

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

NEVER saw one BA at STN ! only easy and fr and monarch and that stuff..
BA has also LCY , not only CJ even the most important one BA001 to JFK

CX-B