Ryanair and COMAC

[earthman]

Sadly (for them) the Chinese have a tendency to screw up their major efforts to enter new markets. See the COVEC debacle in Poland.

[regi]

Sadly (for them) the Chinese have a tendency to screw up their major efforts to enter new markets. See the COVEC debacle in Poland.

Polish are used with new Asian players who collapse. See the Daewoo saga.
Nice new moulding line for the casting of the engine blocks, made by Foundry Automation, Treviso. And than the curtain fell down.
Sad for the Polish workers.

[regi]

I hope for all Ryanair passengers -if this deal goes through - that Comac will perform the wing stress test before launching the product instead of just delivering the coffin and waiting untill something happens. As it did now.

could you give us a bit more details about the bold part?

Yes, and why would EASA and JAA approve an aircraft for flights in europe when it hasn't been tested according to THEIR standards?

I couldn't find the certification for the ARJ21 nor the C919. Can you help me please?

[cnc]

I couldn't find the certification for the ARJ21 nor the C919. Can you help me please?

does this mean you are also searching for the certification for the 777-8X, 777-9X, A380-900 etc?

[earthman]

Sadly (for them) the Chinese have a tendency to screw up their major efforts to enter new markets. See the COVEC debacle in Poland.

Polish are used with new Asian players who collapse. See the Daewoo saga.
Nice new moulding line for the casting of the engine blocks, made by Foundry Automation, Treviso. And than the curtain fell down.
Sad for the Polish workers.

COVEC did not collapse. They won the bid for building two pieces of highway due to the extremely low price they offered, and now got kicked out because they were unable to actually build it for that price. The Chinese hoped this would open up opportunities to build more roads and other things in Europe, but instead it only made them look bad.

[pressman]

Of course no mention of the fact that British airways are the other partner or that most of the vital components are manufactured in Europe .

[regi]

I couldn't find the certification for the ARJ21 nor the C919. Can you help me please?

does this mean you are also searching for the certification for the 777-8X, 777-9X, A380-900 etc?

No, more simple: I asked a simple question and you replied by another question.

[azingrew]

I really don't think the chinese aircraft industry is a big thread at the moment. If the car industry is any example, the chinese have been trying to sell their cars in Europe for 15 years now with displays of ( quite attractive ) cars in every major Motor show over the years, they even went as far as finding importers in every major european country. NONE of these vehicule ever passed the crash tests. All of them were considered dangerous and for instance the dutch importer of a very cute 4X4 which managed to get 2 stars ( out of 5) in the crash test, closed its doors after just a few month. A product, any product specifically designed for the chinese market hasn't got a chance in hell to meet the european standarts any time soon.

[regi]

I really don't think the chinese aircraft industry is a big thread at the moment. If the car industry is any example, the chinese have been trying to sell their cars in Europe for 15 years now with displays of ( quite attractive ) cars in every major Motor show over the years, they even went as far as finding importers in every major european country. NONE of these vehicule ever passed the crash tests. All of them were considered dangerous and for instance the dutch importer of a very cute 4X4 which managed to get 2 stars ( out of 5) in the crash test, closed its doors after just a few month. A product, any product specifically designed for the chinese market hasn't got a chance in hell to meet the european standarts any time soon.

And those Chinese built cars were made with the transfered toolings from the UK ( I know it because I have seen the dies in the UK factory and in the Chinese factory. ). The Brilliance, a Rover 75 copy, is such a bad car that Chinese people don't like it themselves!
But I think most peoples make a wrong assesment of the Chinese manufacturing capabilities. I would like to repeat that they are able to make products of a very high western standard, as long as it is under CONSTANT supervision by the western customer. Even a partnership/JV is regarded as a excuse to evade costs unneccesary in Chinese eyes.
If it is really like this that those COMAC planes are developed by the Chinese, I can not trust the quality. It doesn't matter if the engines, avionics, wings and so on are western made components. The fact that those airplanes would be designed and manufactured according Chinese standards without compulsory constant foreign control + influence on decision making, it is an unreliable product.
That the ARJ21 is partly made on old MD-toolings is no guarrantee for the same quality of the MD-80/90. Toolings have to be checked , adjusted, repaired as well. It is all embedded in stringent procedures. And the Chinese have proven constantly to overrule the procedures.
1 example of last week! A customer has a manufacturing site in China. The parts are out of tolerance. But the measuring report says that the tolerances are OK. The quality guy from Belgium flies to PRC. He has some own measuring tools, quite simple things, but also the calibration tool. Aha ! So he attends in the quality department the measuring of the parts. All fine. Big Chinese smile: the stupid foreigner, huhuhuh. But than this Belgian asks to see the inspection report of the latest calibration of their measuring devices. He had to leave the lab ( of the Belgium company ) immediately. After some phonecalls to Belgium he was let in again. He takes out his calibration device and yep, the Chinese measuring tools are out of tolerance. The Belgian guy can show his latest calibration test. The Chinese can not. They have never done it. But they have filled in all the paper work , in which it is also stated that the calibration has to be performed by a independant institute. Game, set and match. 4 containers to the scrap yard. The Chinese did not even bring the Belgian guy back to the airport. He had to find a taxi in the middle of an industrial estate. That shows who and what they are.

[regi]

trying to focuse again on the original subject:
Could it be that Ryanair wants to prepare itself for a decision by Boeing to leave the narrow body market?
With the massive wave of NEO orders, and the lack of response of Boeing, it would be wise to look for alternatives.
Nothing is worse for a buyer to have no options.

[Stij]

I don't know...

If we remain in aviation... I don't think the safety statistics of Mainland China Airlines are that bad. I don't think they're on the blacklists. I saw LH 747's receiving C or D-checks in Xiamen. So their maintenance capabilities aren't that bad, and those require precision and calibration as well... Or am I wrong?

Cheers,

Stij

P.S. If I were Chinese, I would do it VERY right, because if 1 (one) plane crashes, it's over and out in aviation for the 10 years to come...

[cnc]

I couldn't find the certification for the ARJ21 nor the C919. Can you help me please?

does this mean you are also searching for the certification for the 777-8X, 777-9X, A380-900 etc?

No, more simple: I asked a simple question and you replied by another question.

oh come on if you didn't get that one...
or didn't wikipedia tell you certification for the ARJ21 is currently set for 2012?
enforcing your point of view on some friends is one thing, trying this on an aviation forum is an other

[regi]

I don't know...
If we remain in aviation... I don't think the safety statistics of Mainland China Airlines are that bad. I don't think they're on the blacklists. I saw LH 747's receiving C or D-checks in Xiamen. So their maintenance capabilities aren't that bad, and those require precision and calibration as well... Or am I wrong?
Cheers,
Stij
P.S. If I were Chinese, I would do it VERY right, because if 1 (one) plane crashes, it's over and out in aviation for the 10 years to come...

In fact you say exactly what I mean: All according western standards. And they have all the necessary capabilities, knowledge, equipment. ( in many cases more modern than here in Europe!) But the point is: can you rely on it that they follow all the procedures when you turn your back?
You did also touch another subject: what if something goes wrong? Punishment in China is of a different kind than in Europe or USA.

[earthman]

1 example of last week! A customer has a manufacturing site in China. The parts are out of tolerance. But the measuring report says that the tolerances are OK. The quality guy from Belgium flies to PRC. He has some own measuring tools, quite simple things, but also the calibration tool. Aha ! So he attends in the quality department the measuring of the parts. All fine. Big Chinese smile: the stupid foreigner, huhuhuh. But than this Belgian asks to see the inspection report of the latest calibration of their measuring devices. He had to leave the lab ( of the Belgium company ) immediately. After some phonecalls to Belgium he was let in again. He takes out his calibration device and yep, the Chinese measuring tools are out of tolerance. The Belgian guy can show his latest calibration test. The Chinese can not. They have never done it. But they have filled in all the paper work , in which it is also stated that the calibration has to be performed by a independant institute. Game, set and match. 4 containers to the scrap yard. The Chinese did not even bring the Belgian guy back to the airport. He had to find a taxi in the middle of an industrial estate. That shows who and what they are.

How did the story end? I would have had all employees of the manufacturing site beheaded and their heads placed on spikes in front of the factory as a warning to their newly hired replacements.

[regi]

Game, set and match. 4 containers to the scrap yard. The Chinese did not even bring the Belgian guy back to the airport. He had to find a taxi in the middle of an industrial estate. That shows who and what they are.

How did the story end? I would have had all employees of the manufacturing site beheaded and their heads placed on spikes in front of the factory as a warning to their newly hired replacements.

Game, set and match. 4 containers to the scrap yard.
That is all I know about it, it is still a customer of me, I can not ask all dirty details.
But, the managers do get a bonus according their performance. So I guess that some Chinese managers of that plant can postpone the new car ( made in PRC ) .

[Stij]

Punishment in China is of a different kind than in Europe or USA.

And that's exactly the reason these babies will fly. The "peoples republic" government will regard this as a prestige project, so it will work, otherwise... those engineers will go missing... Don't know where they went...

And don't say "People will refuse to fly in a plane made in those conditions!"... check that nice chandelier you bought at IKEA or your child's toys... and you know waht will happen!

Cheers,

Stij

[earthman]

Actually in a few articles which I have recently read it is stated that wages are rising quite quickly in China, to the point where some companies actually look at other places to open up new factories.

[regi]

Punishment in China is of a different kind than in Europe or USA.

And that's exactly the reason these babies will fly. The "peoples republic" government will regard this as a prestige project, so it will work, otherwise... those engineers will go missing... Don't know where they went...
And don't say "People will refuse to fly in a plane made in those conditions!"... check that nice chandelier you bought at IKEA or your child's toys... and you know waht will happen!
Cheers,
Stij

I have never been in a IKEA store. Serious.
I know people who refuse to fly Lao Air on some routes because they use Chinese built airplanes. It are Thai business people from Chinese decent...( But I guess they have no knowledge that they often fly a A320 Made in PRC )

Not sure that the C919 will solidify: ( but I believe that the ARJ21 will go ahead in full swing, the program is too far in execution )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Y-10

But pulling out of promising aircraft programs is not limited to China alone. Many ( all?) others have done this before.

[regi]

This article sheds some light on today's reality of Chinese made products:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia- ... 67183.html

For a westerner it sounds strange that a local communist party leader can be blamed. But in Chinese companies, there is always somebody around with the red party pin on his / her chest, to give the go ahead for a project, and to report back to Bejing. I witnessed it myself during factory inspections. Even at the JV with General Electric there was constant party control / intervention. At a certain moment it got so ridiculous. The party guy said that I was not allowed to see the drawings of specific components. I blinked for a second because it were MY drawings I had sent to them. I shoved them over the table and he left the office to make a call (with Bejing?)

The design office of the faulty signalling equipment takes the blame for the crash.
I bet that some guys at Siemens are thinking "I told you guys: don't copy our products and think you would get away with it"

[earthman]

Of course it helps that the bullet train tickets are much more expensive, so the victims probably came from more affluent and influential families?