LJ wrote:The military didn't take over. They ordered civilian controllers to do their job, that's why the Spanish government declared the State of Emergency. Furthermore, I don't think an accident in Spain can be used to discount what happened in the US.. I can't recall of any serious incident in the US as a result of the military taking over the civilian control.
Well, I can hardly imagine being able to exercise one of the most stressful job in the world being forced by militaries. What if there's an incident ?
Have you read the report about the incident ?
I was not born when those events happened in US or Spain, but 1 accident and 68 deads are enough, aren't they ? And i consider France being closer to Spain than US for this case.
regi wrote:This is an escalation that is not acceptable in Europe.
Spain should be very careful with such military actions, looking back at its past as one of Europe's last dictatorships. If the minister was not able to prevent (legal or illegal ) strikes he should step down instead of calling in the military. This is also a blame for the military. They are used now as strikebreakers.
I hope you don't seriously want to say that the Spanish government didn't do the right thing? Finally I don't see why we have to get Franco into this discussion.
also for airazurxtror:
You don't see Franco in this discussion because you don't know history or want to ignore it.
If even De Tijd uses exactly the same reference, you should be more humble and listening to what plays in the mind of the people. http://www.tijd.be/nieuws/politiek_-_ec ... .art?ckc=1
Het is van 1975 geleden dat in Spanje de noodtoestand nog eens werd uitgeroepen. Toen was de dood van dicatator Franco de aanleiding. Verkeersleiders die niet aan het werk wilden, konden een gevangenisstraf krijgen.
Translation: It has been since 1975 that the state of emergency was declared in Spain. The reason was the death of dictator Franco. ATC's who did not want to work could receive a prison sentence.
theeuropean wrote:"Democratic Europe can not accept a state of emergency in one of its membership states, because of a labour dispute."
It's a little bit late for that - the Greek government used the same method over the summer to get truckers back to work...and just a few days ago to get seamen back to work...
However this game of threats and wildcat strikes, and military intervention is getting to become a little bit irritating for me. I think there should be a new way (or new ideas) to deal with (current and future) labour disputes.
Rant over.
Anyone see the snow again - are expecting many delays...again?
Have a nice evening everyone
Yes, besides of possible different opinions you bring up here an interesting fact: that is that the impact of the bad weather is much greater than the strike in Spain.
regi wrote:
You don't see Franco in this discussion because you don't know history or want to ignore it.
If even De Tijd uses exactly the same reference, you should be more humble and listening to what plays in the mind of the people.
I'm well aware of the Franco regime (and the fact that on both sides he hasn't really past away) as is probably airazurxtror. However, comparing the situation at present with the situation in 1975 is comparing apples with oranges and the controllers aren't stupid to figure that one out. Furthermore as pointed out, Spain is not the only country declaring the state of emergency to brake strikes (and will also not the only one doing this when it deems necessary).
I haven't heard many (if any) objections in Spain for the actions of the Spanish government. Seems as if all politicians were in favour of this action, thus one can argue that it's justified from a democratic point of view. Maybe it would be better if Spanish labour law would have been adjusted to cope with these kind of problems in another way, but at present, the only way to brake these kind of strikes is to declare the state of emergency. Or are you arguing that a government has no right to brake any strike?
Finally, the controllers can always go to the European Court of Justice if they feel their rights have been curtailed, something which wouldn't be possible in 1975.
BTW I don't know how many people you know from Spain, but my friends from Spain get very upset when bringing connecting current Spain with Franco (or better they're tired of hearing it). Not that they don't want to know about their history, but more that they feel that Spain has moved on and so should everybody else. it's not that we associate current Dutch or Belgium policies with their colonial past.....
But the problem is not solved permanently.
All over Europe the ATC's can go on strike at any moment because of reasons that are justified to them.
This problem drags on already so long.
With the open borders, Shenghen, EU...there should be an EU airspace and therefor EU ATC's. Well , just my own little idea.
regi wrote:But the problem is not solved permanently.
All over Europe the ATC's can go on strike at any moment because of reasons that are justified to them.
This problem drags on already so long.
With the open borders, Shenghen, EU...there should be an EU airspace and therefor EU ATC's. Well , just my own little idea.
If ATCO's are going on strike all over Europe, it's perhaps because something isn't going right in the ATC as it is becoming...
The 24-hour strike by Spanish air traffic controllers has cost the tourist and airline sectors hundreds of millions of euros and the political cost for an already unpopular government could be much higher.
Newspapers said the strike may have cost the tourism industry as much as 350 million euros and airlines more than 100 million euros.
Images of soldiers taking over control towers will be an embarrassment to Prime Minister Zapatero, only days after he announced plans to raise around 9 billion euros by selling 49 percent of AENA.
Lawyers representing more than 2,000 affected passengers said they were studying suing the controllers for 10,000 euros per passenger for damages caused by the strike.
regi wrote:But the problem is not solved permanently.
All over Europe the ATC's can go on strike at any moment because of reasons that are justified to them.
This problem drags on already so long.
With the open borders, Shenghen, EU...there should be an EU airspace and therefor EU ATC's. Well , just my own little idea.
If ATCO's are going on strike all over Europe, it's perhaps because something isn't going right in the ATC as it is becoming...
yes, 2 things: there is something wrong with the current situation and upcoming developments for ATC's. And secondly the problem is not dealt with in the right way, otherwise we would not see all those strikes.
AIRLINES INFURIATED BY SPANISH AIRSPACE CLOSURE Carriers helpless as ‘calculated act’ by controllers brings passenger misery
The Association of European Airlines, which brings together 35 of Europe’s most important network carriers, has roundly condemned the circumstances which caused the paralysis of air traffic within, to and from Spain last week, as air traffic controllers walked off the job without warning, leaving tens of thousands of passengers stranded over a busy holiday period.
“For a second time this year, we have seen vast numbers of airline passengers prevented, by means entirely beyond the airlines’ control, from making their intended journey”, said AEA Secretary General Ulrich Schulte-Strathaus. “Governments used inappropriate procedures to deal with the volcanic eruptions in April/May; this latest disruption is entirely man-made, a calculated act”.
The fact that the Spanish government had to react in the way it did to re-establish a functioning infrastructure in Spain, is symptomatic for the need for structural reform, he said. “In some parts of European Air Traffic Control, inefficiency is a fact and the situation must be swiftly addressed. Passengers are entitled to mobility, and airlines are seeking to provide for safe, affordable and environmentally-friendly service. But when passengers are stranded, airlines are blamed. Enough is enough. It is high time the problems were resolved. The Spanish action demonstrates both the pressing need for an overhaul of the European ATC system, and the disproportionate power of a relatively small number of individuals to block the whole system.”
“Enduring images of the weekend are of stranded passengers, their travel plans in chaos”, said the AEA Secretary General. "No one questions the important role of air traffic controllers, but they should not be able to cripple an economy. Airlines and their customers need definitive assurances that governments will ensure that the right to mobility will no longer be undermined. Airlines cannot underwrite the whole spectrum of damage caused by events outside their control. It is high time regulators clarified the circumstances under which airlines and their customers can claim compensation from those who create the problems”.
Mr. Schulte-Strathaus added: "To add insult to injury, the bill for paying for the use of infrastructure is €3.3 billion too high – each year". The Secretary General reiterated that if European aviation is to be able to compete in future in the global marketplace, it needs a Single European Sky programme, which will rationalize European airspace, and which will be a driver for efficiency, with significant potential benefits for the airlines, their customers and the environment.
The (Polish) news reported that the Spanish ATCs went on strike because they hadn't gotten a pay raise in a few years, noting however that they make 350.000 euro per year and already get paid more than controllers in other European countries.
earthman wrote:The (Polish) news reported that the Spanish ATCs went on strike because they hadn't gotten a pay raise in a few years, noting however that they make 350.000 euro per year and already get paid more than controllers in other European countries.
It's so easy to bring everything back to the money.
Money is not the point in this crisis, it looks like polish news are not very well informed...
earthman wrote:The (Polish) news reported that the Spanish ATCs went on strike because they hadn't gotten a pay raise in a few years, noting however that they make 350.000 euro per year and already get paid more than controllers in other European countries.
It's so easy to bring everything back to the money.
Money is not the point in this crisis, it looks like polish news are not very well informed...
In the end, everything is about money. Sometimes you just have to look harder to see it.
earthman wrote:The (Polish) news reported that the Spanish ATCs went on strike because they hadn't gotten a pay raise in a few years, noting however that they make 350.000 euro per year and already get paid more than controllers in other European countries.
It's so easy to bring everything back to the money.
Money is not the point in this crisis, it looks like polish news are not very well informed...
In the end, everything is about money. Sometimes you just have to look harder to see it.
Ok, the problem is understaffing... So, the solution is obviously to hire new controllers which costs money.
But it's not about the wage, as from my informations...
The problem is not understaffing but that they suddenly had to work a normal amount of hours for a normal pay, as opposed to getting ridiculous amounts of money for really not that many hours. Remember this is Spain.
earthman wrote:The problem is not understaffing but that they suddenly had to work a normal amount of hours for a normal pay, as opposed to getting ridiculous amounts of money for really not that many hours. Remember this is Spain.
I don't know what is your picture of Spain...
Concerning the "normal" amount of hours.. What is a "normal" amount of hours when you work at nights and week ends ?
If you base your thoughts on polish medias, I suggest you check other sources.
Concerning the "normal" amount of hours.. What is a "normal" amount of hours when you work at nights and week ends ?
A normal amount is 1620 hours a year, everything included (holidays, ...)(in Belgium). This amount is also used for nurses etc who works at nights and weekends. The spanish ATC have to work only 1000 hours, so add the overtime of 600 hours and they are still within the Belgian "normal" amount.
kookongsi wrote:
A normal amount is 1620 hours a year, everything included (holidays, ...)(in Belgium). This amount is also used for nurses etc who works at nights and weekends. The spanish ATC have to work only 1000 hours, so add the overtime of 600 hours and they are still within the Belgian "normal" amount.
Greetz
there's been a "decret" in February bringing the yearly hours to 1670 for spanish ATCO's... and limiting the number of extra hours to 80. Even with that new decret, it wasn't enough... that's why they're unhappy...
Giovanni Bisignani's Opinion on the Air Traffic Control Situation in Spain
Opinion piece published in El País, 9 December 2010
The illegal Spanish air traffic controller strike last weekend was a costly embarrassment for Europe’s 5th largest economy. On top of the 650 thousand people who were stranded abroad or stuck in Spain, the economic impact was great. The day and a half stoppage put at risk nearly $100 million in airline revenues. The immediate impact on business could be up to EUR 300 million. And the longer term impact for the Spanish economy, which is 11% driven by tourism, could be much larger if confidence in air traffic management (ATM) reliability does not return quickly.
As Spain’s ATM system returns to “normal” under the military’s watch, a European perspective could help put the events in context. Europe’s air traffic management is safe, but it is not efficient. On average every European flight faces air traffic management costs of EUR 771. In the US the equivalent figure is EUR 440.
The cost of this inefficiency is felt by everybody who flies or ships in Europe. And it’s a big number. In total the competitive disadvantage of Europe’s air traffic management mess is EUR 5 billion a year.
The answer is neither a secret nor is it rocket science. It is the Single European Sky (SES) - and politicians have been discussing it for at least four decades. While Europe has been able to eliminate borders on the ground, the air traffic control map of the continent belongs to an age long before the Wright Brothers took their first flight.
Europe’s economy is the slowest of the major global economies to recover from the economic crisis. In line with this, Europe’s airlines are among the world’s least profitable. Urgent change is needed to restore competitiveness. European governments have given SES a big mission to achieve by 2020. It must cut European air traffic management costs in half; and increase airspace capacity three fold. Moreover SES will improve safety by a factor of 10, reduce average delays to 30 seconds, and cut the total impact of aviation on the environment by 10%.
Spanish air traffic control is the biggest cost problem for European ATM. Spain’s air traffic controllers are the least productive but the best paid amongst their European colleagues. Spanish air traffic controllers in 2010 earn an average salary of EUR 200,000 per year—a 50% more than the European average. But their productivity is only a third of what UK controllers achieve. The room for improvement is huge!
Let’s be clear that nobody expects that the problems of reducing costs in the air transport industry should be borne solely on the backs of air traffic controllers. Look at what the airlines have done over the last decade. Labor productivity improved by 63%. Fuel efficiency is now 20% better. Sales and marketing unit costs are down 19%. And, for the consumer, the real cost of travel fell by a third. These changes were not easy. But in a competitive industry, they were necessary to survive.
What happened with Aena air traffic control over the same ten-year period? Out-of-control labor costs forced a doubling of its charges. This made Spain a more expensive place to vacation or to do business. The government intervened to freeze the unit rate for 2010. And there is a commitment to reduce charges by 15% over 2011 to 2012. But even after this much needed reduction, Spanish charges will still be among Europe’s highest.
The problems with Spain’s air traffic control are acute. The case for change could not be clearer. I applaud Minister Blanco for his determination to deliver change. It is not acceptable that controllers resist that change by holding the mobility of an entire nation hostage. Guarding the status quo is not an option. The door for positive discussion should always be open. But it must be as part of a process that is moving forward and in line with today’s economic reality.
