BRU 05/01/2009 snow, delays & cancellations

[JoskeDR]

Hi

It is very easy for desk people , to say brussels handles things correctly because most of them just see what's on paper, not what happens in reality.
RANT ON
Tell me, how normall is it, when ALL NATIONAL FORECASTS INDICATE HEAVY SNOW AND FREEZING TEMPERATURES in brussels, that nothing was prepared?
When I arrived in brussels on monday at 1700LT, they were still sweeping runway 25R/07L . How is it possible this had not been done before?
I agree we need to have economic/efficient services but from my point of view, which should be the 'reference' because I AM the "end-user"(as pilot) of the whole system(ok the PAX are end users too but they just go along the experience and have no interaction with it), Brussels airport was TOTALLY UNPREPARED for the snow which was PREDICTED. there is NO WAY you can convince me that they have a valid excuse.
RANT OFF

The 'winterisation' of the airport should have been prepared more carefully, I thought that 1 day beginning of 2008 was an eye-opener for flight care, aviapartner and the other airport facility services but apparently they havent learnt a thing!(and yes that was a surprise too, but showed how weak our winterisation perfomance is)
It's still the same problem like before.
A. Flight care is seriously understaffed because they refuse to offer people decent working conditions.
B. Airport snow removal... how long should it take to clean a runway? 3 hours in brussels apparantly, this is TOO LONG!
C. cutbacks cutbacks cutbacks. How many de-icing trucks are available(i mean STAFFED trucks with actual fluid in them!)
When are people going to realise you cannot simply keep on pinching a dime out everywhere and expect everything to run smooth as silk??? When are employees going stop accepting top-management getting high bonusses for squeezing out every penny they can rendering working conditions terrible.
Brushasa is not about comparing winterisation, it's about a mentality. Is it normal after 36hrs, twy B1 was still VERY SLIPPERY (full of ice ridges and patches)??
NO, and they simply didn't care...
With all due respect for ALL personell at Brussels airport because the people working there are doing what they can with the resources management gives them. Who is to blame here?
Winter happens, deal with it, properly. Not like a half-wit like they did in brussels last days.
It's a good thing pilots don't deal with flying like managers, because if we'd do with our fuel calculations the same as the managers do in the offices ... accident rates would be up in no time...
Just get real people. *"'(è!ç"§çè! the crisis, safety comes first at ALL times, if you don't get that concept, GET OUT of aviation

PS Atlantis: it seems you are not from the brussels-based pilot world since saying brussels pilots don't call brussels brushasa is simply a lie... (i know at least 300 )
PS Stij: you have a good point there. Some airports do this (in scandinavia f.e.) but they use designated de-icing bays 'near' the holding points. In bru, M and K de-icing bays are 'not far from' the holding point for 25R, however with these easterly winds they used the 07 for departures for a while which changes things. So maybe they should consider another de-icing bay near the 07R/02 ? (de-icing bays are expensive though, they're not 'just some concrete' as they contain serious draining systems to recuperate deicing fluids...)

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Now, you were on a BD flight, meaning your handling agent was Aviapartner if I am not mistaken: Aviapartner NEVER uses remote de-icing, since the remote de-icing platforms in BRU are reserved exclusively for FlightCare!

I can't believe this! Faced with extreme circumstances, you'd expect Aviapartner and Flightcare to cooperate. Since Aviapartner has so little de-icing trucks (How else can u explain my 45 minute wait?), and I don't expect flightcare to have a lot more, you'd expect them to work together. As it was an operational problem solely due to the lack of de-icing trucks, I genuinely expect aviapartner to suffer a financial penalty because of this.

Also in case of extreme weather you'd expect everybody to work together. No point of de-icing a plane if the runway/taxiways aren't de-iced yet for example! Somehow because Bru is in Belgium, I am sure something similar has happened yesterday!

Standard procedure for SN's long haul flights:
All of SN's longhaul flights arrive at the B terminal in the morning.
SN's long haul flights leave from the T terminal (enclosed end section of the A terminal actually) however, so they have to be towed to their departure gates after de-boarding...

Mmmm as my plane was parked at the B terminal but its tail facing the old C terminal, and as I was on the right hand side of the plane when taxiing, I actually really think the plane was being towed from the runway, and not from terminal B to T.

The alternative to LHR is the train, but also not delay-free

That I know though it has gotten better recently than in the past. But given that flying is usually cheaper when you book late between BRU and London, and that it is a hell of a lot more fun to fly as well, well I prefer plane!

This needed to be off my chest. Remember that all the staff working at the airport is there for earning a living and is doing his/her best with the means offered.

Thanks for the info and clarifications. Much appreciated! Well we're only human therefore staff will do mistakes that is normal. Also people on the ground can only do what they can given the equipment available. If there is a lack of equipment, or proper planning, you can't blame staff that is for sure...

It puzzles me why the airport authority doesn't make a temporary agreement with ALL handlers in BRU for the de-icing.
- you can use a dedicated de-icing aera, which clears the gates for other fligths
- you have de-icing trucks permanent ( no waiting for a refill)
- you can make price arangements with all airliners

your comparison with the mentioned airports is not correct. These stations have much tougher, longer, snowier (!), colder winters as we have. This means it's worth investing in enough and adequate winter fighting equipment.

Exactly. BRu can consider itself very lucky to only occasionally suffer from harsh conditions. Nevertheless when these do happen, then might be worth pooling resources together. Not saying they should buy tons of equipment for 2 or 3 these a year. Just buy some multiusage things. I am sure a de-icing truck can be re-used somewhere else (PS the size of it made me laugh, how many planes can one these trucks de-ice? 1 at the time?)

And things didn't seem better on the arrival side according to BrightCedars! Then again I suffered the same fate in LHR. Had to wait for ages to get my suitcase back. But yeah Cant compare apples and pears!

[b.lufthansa]

Nice post JoskeDR ! Another question: why isn't the ice and the snow around the gates not removed ? It has been 36 hours since the last snow and still this has not been handled, it's very dangerous for crew, passengers and all handling agents to go to and from the aircrafts ? Do we need a serious accident first ?

[euroflyer]

Ha,ha, try harder I would say. Like member 744rules said, those airports you mention has very strong winters with a lot of snow. It's obvious that they would have several snow teams, I never expected something else.

Brussels Airport never closed due to snow, something we can't say about the third biggest airport of Germany - Dusseldorf with 18 million pax a year. They were closed today for several hours.

(1) I would not say Hamburg has MUCH more snow than BRU, given it is quite close to the sea it is usually not THAT cold up there, but I have no real statistics. But you can be quite flexible and innovative here. I know for example FRA has contracts with local farmers living not far away from the airport. They usually have not so much work in winter time, are used to drive heavy vehicles and are always looking for additional income. So in case of snow falling they are called to the airport and they than drive the vehicles to remove the snow from the runways.

(2) It is not true BRU never (!) closed for snow. I can very well remember a day, must be 3 or 4 years ago in January, when I was on a already heavily delayed FRA-BRU flight of LH (delay because of lot of snow in FRA as well). Just before starting the final approach we went back up in the sky and were told BRU had just closed because of too much snow and we would have to fly circles above Brussels for more than 2 hours (!!), what we really did before we landed finally. So even if it did not close today or yesterday, it has closed sometimes in the past ...

Finally, I am happy to be on holidays (with lots of snow in the swiss mountains) right now and hope everything will be back to normal next week when I will be back

[Atlantis]

Ha,ha, try harder I would say. Like member 744rules said, those airports you mention has very strong winters with a lot of snow. It's obvious that they would have several snow teams, I never expected something else.

Brussels Airport never closed due to snow, something we can't say about the third biggest airport of Germany - Dusseldorf with 18 million pax a year. They were closed today for several hours.

(1) I would not say Hamburg has MUCH more snow than BRU, given it is quite close to the sea it is usually not THAT cold up there, but I have no real statistics. But you can be quite flexible and innovative here. I know for example FRA has contracts with local farmers living not far away from the airport. They usually have not so much work in winter time, are used to drive heavy vehicles and are always looking for additional income. So in case of snow falling they are called to the airport and they than drive the vehicles to remove the snow from the runways.

(2) It is not true BRU never (!) closed for snow. I can very well remember a day, must be 3 or 4 years ago in January, when I was on a already heavily delayed FRA-BRU flight of LH (delay because of lot of snow in FRA as well). Just before starting the final approach we went back up in the sky and were told BRU had just closed because of too much snow and we would have to fly circles above Brussels for more than 2 hours (!!), what we really did before we landed finally. So even if it did not close today or yesterday, it has closed sometimes in the past ...

Finally, I am happy to be on holidays (with lots of snow in the swiss mountains) right now and hope everything will be back to normal next week when I will be back

If I'm remember well the airport was closed 9 - 10 years ago for several hours due to fog.

A combination of fog and snow could lead to a closure for several times but not only for snow. All runways were open the last couple of days due to the snowteams who worked on all runways.

[Airbus330lover]

BRU managed the "problem" without closure of the airport.
For information..... on 5 and 6/1/2009... CDG closed for at least 1 hour and.... cancelled 400 flights.
See http://www.france2.fr journal de 20 heures 6/1/2009
Don't shoot BRU !

[JAFflyer]

Come on, every pilot flying out of BRU knows that Flightcare messes up big time when situations like these occur. It's every time the same story... When you hear the flightcare frequency that day, you just have to feel sorry for the guy (or girl) sitting there. In the end, he just didn't respond anymore. A 747 cargo calling was ignored for 30 mins and then was told it would take at least 2,5 hrs before it was his turn... A BA was number 7 in line, after 1,5hr, he was number 6...
We were the second one to be de-iced that morning, at that time they just called a third truck, for which we had to wait a while... ANTICIPATE???

Flightcare = FlightSCARE
Brussels= Africa North

A common statement between pilots/airlines.