Alitalia close to liquidation

[LX-LGX]

Italy and Belgium are the 2 only European countries where unions can do whatever they like, without being hold legally responsible.

Come on, very easy to repeat the mantra of the 'evil unions'. You already forgot the Sabena story? Who plundered what? Indeed, private (Swiss) investors did it so enthusiastic ....well, they ended up convicted for violating the law.

It's strange, but every time the Sabena saga is picked up, the memory of some gives up, and only "Swiss Swiss Swiss" is remembered as cause. Please read your SN files again. And/or the Report of the Parliament Hearings. And/or one of the books that have been written about this. Sabena didn't went bankrupt only because of the Swiss holdup. Sabena dissappeared because of a combination of facts.

- cumulation of ongoing losses, for 75 years. Example: during the last 25 years, the Belgian taxpayer has covered losses for 31,5 mia BEF: some 780,000,000 euro. "Transferred losses": nobody likes to see that in the books of a company one wants to take over.

- refusal by the Franco-Belgian establishment for a non-French speaking SN/KLM partnership (back in the 80's).

- ongoing strikes for years made loose Sabena it's credibility from the public.

- 11th Sept 2001 set back in aviation.

- stupid A320/A321 deal (Sept 1997, those 34 planes).

- Swiss holdup.

- ongoing strikes during take over discussions. Unions never thaught that the government would allow SN to go bankrupt.

- stupid decisions by Belgian politicians: Elio di Rupo (who couldn't find another investor then Swissair) and Daems, Verhofstadt & Vande Lanotte (who have signed the big Hotel Agreement without bank guarantuee).

[ElcoB]

Sabena dissappeared because of a combination of facts.
...

Indeed, I agree.
But your arguments already indicate that the influence of the unions was not that big.
But to be honest: is union activity only negative?
A aviation business where personel feel they are and bad treated and underpayed will make profits in the short term but will face major troubles in the future. See this topic. for an illustration.

[ERICAIRLINES]

it is now time to stop with favoritism about AZ Sn and others did not have such a luck double standard treatment ...same for olympic..ans eralier for IB and AF..


about supposed to be 'non french speaking' SN/KL ..same goes for opposition of the flemish for SN/AF

If Sabena would have stay with AF it would still be there today ...iso KL...


Don't forget that the french gov paid in one time all AF debts....belgian one did not...and when you see the wealth of AF/KL now...


You talk about taxpayers money...you maybe think that actual situation is better.. very small home carrier(codeshares airline 'Bru air')...all ex sabena pax flying via FRA AMS CDG LHR and bringing their taxes outside belgium....jobs losts and their potential taxes....

We need jet airways for belgium and BRU to have a decent long haul network and hub....

And about the aibus order,it was decided by SR management...

etc etc

[chunk]

I know this may be a raw nerve for all you Sabena fans and I understand why!

That said, Alitalia have to stop being bailed out - it is completely unfair on the rest of the market and ultimately unfair on the travelling public and the general public who are ultimately funding this mess.

Lets face it, someone will come in to fill the breech and hopefully with a more stable, reliable organisation. Maybe they will get rid of those ancient looking MD's I see at CDG all the time as well. I hear the 76's are pretty grim as well........not that I ever take a chance and fly on them anyway.

[spotter1102]

Is Alitalia still alive now ?

[LJ]

And the winner is: AIr France-KLM!
They always wanted Alitalia, now they will be able to buy it for less money and with less constaints.

No, Air France-KLM wants Iberia. They have no interest in Alitalia otherwise they would not have backed-up from the biddings.

nowadays a second hand 320 worth as much as a brand new one.....

Yeah prices are high but Alitalia has been selling its long-haul fleet of 747's at bargain-prices. I'd be relieved if Bruair could buy at least those 12 A319's and return some RJ's to the lessors.

AF/KL always preferred AZ above IB for various reasons. Number one KL knows AZ very well and thus knows how valuable the Northern Italian market is (and if it weren't for Italian politics they would already own part of AZ). Second, the chances of getting IB aren't very high (and they probably know this). Yes they [AF/KL] will make an offer for IB (like LH), but anyone seriously thinking that BA will sell its stake in IB must think again. Call it drive up the price for a takeover target so that your competitor (in this case BA) has to pay more than they initially wanted). Is very good strategy as your competitor can't devote more money to its own company (and thus is a little less problem for you). BTW dóesn't anyone think it's strange that suddenly AF/KL (and also LH) started to get interested in IB while both AF/KL and LH have always declared to have more interest in AZ?????

As far as the A320s are concerned. You do need cash in order to buy/lease these aircraft (and preferably also a good credit rating). I personanly duodt that SN currently has much extra resources.......

[spotter1102]

According to luchtvaartnieuw.nl, the CEO of Air One has revealed today that the airline is interested by the privatisation of Alitalia.

[TWA]

As far as the A320s are concerned. You do need cash in order to buy/lease these aircraft (and preferably also a good credit rating). I personanly duodt that SN currently has much extra resources.......

Maybe a few of the 75 very old MD80's could be a good deal.

[LX-LGX]

The European Comision already took the decision to prohibit Italian state aid to Alitalia, and it's already effective.

In September 2005, the European Commission has adopted "Community guidelines on financing of airports and start-up aid to airlines departing from regional airports". So Italy is still funding Alitalia (reason: the less debts AZ has, the more candidate-buyers there will be).

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Ryanair has protested against this EU-bureaucracy in a press release from 10th July 2007:
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php ... -en-100707

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Strange: on the same day as Ryanair's press release, there was this EU-Memo about this matter:

(quote)The Commission has also received a large number of complaints from competing airports and airlines (approximately 40) concerning State aid that has not been brought into line with the guidelines. The Commission is carefully investigating these complaints. A number of these may be closed, because the information provided by the Member States has demonstrated that the complaints were not founded. In a number of other cases, the Commission is continuing its preliminary investigations. For four of these cases, the Commission has decided today (remark LX-LGX: 10th July 2007) to open the formal investigation procedure. The other cases remain under investigation, and the Commission will take formal decisions thereon when the information at its disposal allows it to take a position.(unquote)

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Let's not push the EU too hard for this "formal investigation procedure": they first have to go to Indonesia for a few weeks, to check if aviation is safe for us, EU-citizens (because of the airban list).

[pietroman]

As far as the A320s are concerned. You do need cash in order to buy/lease these aircraft (and preferably also a good credit rating). I personanly duodt that SN currently has much extra resources.......

Maybe a few of the 75 very old MD80's could be a good deal.

mmmmm those are nice planes, would be nice to see them back more often at EBBR