KLM+Belgian airlines having difficult times finding pilots

1V1 · Post by **1V1** » 12 May 2007, 20:53

Avro I think de discussion is not if Belgian pilots are well paid. They're not because you've to compare with other pilots like you would compare engineer salaries with other engineer.

The question was why is there a shortage of pilots in Belgium. The answer is very simple, a lot of qualified pilots are attracted by foreign companies with better conditions. Better conditions = better salary, better type rating, better rest an duty times, better social life, better extras, better career possibility, better pension fund, better family life, better......

1V1 · Post by **1V1** » 12 May 2007, 21:04

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 12 May 2007, 21:09

LX-LGX wrote:
FlightMate wrote: European law indeed states that social charges and taxes on labour must be paid according to the law of the country where the labour is done.

The only exception I know are the "grensarbeiders" ("border-employees"): people who live near the border, and who work at 5 kms on the other side of the border.

Well, you clearly don't know everything, so please don't speak rubbish if you don't know.
First of all: there is no European Law. The european constitution is still far away.
Second, these issues are subject to double tax agreements and in europe they all state that employees of airlines, as well as sailors, are taxed in the country were the headoffice of the company is located.

If you think there is no shortage: Parc aviation is actually looking for 737captains on behalf of TNT: Net salary 6000€/month plus hotel in Liege.
After one month they still have some vacancies left because the offer is below market conditions.

BrusselsAirlines · Post by **BrusselsAirlines** » 12 May 2007, 21:40

I have several pilots in my neighborhoud living in new build, very big houses with two or three cars in their garages and in front of it. Not "common" cars, no, cabrio's, 4x4, etc. And every week or two weeks a party in their garden. And do you know what, they all fly FOR A BELGIAN CARRIER.

You are sure their wives are no surgeons or dentists or so?? Give me the name of that company - PLEASSSSEEE!!

I'm working my ass of at BA, paying my debts but having great fun. I've worked for some years in non aviation companies - 38hr weeks... - 8 to 7! and I can tell you that this is something else - no romance my man - just bloody hard work but at least nobody to judge you at 30.000ft!

The future is looking

and good that the pilot job will be getting a bit more appreciation soon after these dark years!

BTW; many thanks to Ludo for his appearance in the news! Great job!

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 12 May 2007, 21:52

I've always thaught that pilots wanted to fly. The recent treat to strike and most of the posts here make it clear that I have to review my opinion: for most of the pilots on this forum, the bank account seems to be more important then the cockpit.

- - -

Talking about Easyjet: their result for Sept 2006 till March 2007: minus 25 mio euro. But still that's good news, as it was minus 59 mio euro for the same period last year.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 12 May 2007, 22:08

fcw wrote:
LX-LGX wrote:
FlightMate wrote: European law indeed states that social charges and taxes on labour must be paid according to the law of the country where the labour is done.

The only exception I know are the "grensarbeiders" ("border-employees"): people who live near the border, and who work at 5 kms on the other side of the border.
Well, you clearly don't know everything, so please don't speak rubbish if you don't know. First of all: there is no European Law. The european constitution is still far away.

There's indeed a difference between the European Constitution and European Legislation. But European Legislation is as valid as our Belgian laws. For example: EU-Regulation 1408/71 settles my remark above (about social security if one works abroad).

So it wasn't me who's posting rubbish here.

BrusselsAirlines · Post by **BrusselsAirlines** » 12 May 2007, 22:13

Like Brigitte Bardot once said;

'It's nicer to be sad and crying in your Rolls Royce than in your 2CV...'

Nevertheless, I don't think it's only about money, it's just a market of supply and demand - a cocktail of salary, conditions, future outlook, type rating, etc.

I can imagine that Dehaene wasn't thinking of aircraft being grounded because of crew shortages when he decided to stop the funding of pilot trainings back in '94 or so...long term thinking hasn't been the strongest assett of our politicians

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 12 May 2007, 22:40

[

LX-LGXquote="LX-LGXThere's indeed a difference between the European Constitution and European Legislation. But European Legislation is as valid as our Belgian laws. For example: EU-Regulation 1408/71 settles my remark above (about social security if one works abroad).

So it wasn't me who's posting rubbish here.

[/quote]

I am afraid you ARE my dear LX, on the first page of this regulation is says:
"a person employed on board a vessel flying the flag of a Member State is subject to the legislation of that State;"
In other words: if you fly an Irish plane you work in Ireland and you pay tax AND social security there.
It would give you so much credit if for once you could admit you are wrong.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 12 May 2007, 23:07

We're not talking about legislation: this is about Social Security. And the European Union has agreed, in order to protect the more expensive S.S.-countries (like Belgium...) that Social Security must be paid where labour is done. It's just like for Belgian staff working in a Foreign Embassy in Brussels: they have a foreign contract and they pay social taxes here and Belgian Labour legislation applies. Advantage for them: both public holidays apply.

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 13 May 2007, 00:03

LX-LGX wrote:We're not talking about legislation: this is about Social Security. And the European Union has agreed, in order to protect the more expensive S.S.-countries (like Belgium...) that Social Security must be paid where labour is done. It's just like for Belgian staff working in a Foreign Embassy in Brussels: they have a foreign contract and they pay social taxes here and Belgian Labour legislation applies. Advantage for them: both public holidays apply.

LX,
This is the title of the document:
Social security schemes and free movement of persons: Basic Regulation (EEC) No 1408/71
This Regulation coordinates national social security legislation in order to protect the social security rights of persons moving within the European Union.
So it is clear we are talking about social security.
Please, just read it and then come back and just admit you are wrong

Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 13 May 2007, 09:43

Avro wrote:
haflinger wrote: For example a VLM copilot earns about 2500€ gross a month and has a flight pay of 300€/month
----------------------> 1800€/monts nett!
Well 2500€ gross per month for a starter is quite good !! How many jobs are paid that good for young starters coming from school ? Not that many !!

Well AVRO, a co-pilot is not always a starter. Often a starter needs to do 5 years of co-piloting at least to be elligible for the left-hand seat.
And 1800€/month is not enough, remember you need to reimburse the 1200€ for your loan in the first 12 years of your carreer. This means thats as co-pilot, you will have 1800-1200=600€ for a living.

You wouldn t need to take out a loan to become postman, would you?

Member Brussels Airlines, I admire your passion for aviation and for the company you operate under.
But would you say no if Ryanair offers you twice your salary and the possibility to rank up to a Captain position within 1 year of service?

Yeah LX is a hard guy, but he loves and cares about aviation (and boekhouding), and that's what makes of him a good man anyway.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 13 May 2007, 09:47

fcw,

obviously, the non-pilots here are too stupid for intelligent people you.

Any non-pilot going through the posts here will understand that the biggest problem Belgian aviation has is not a shortage of pilots. Like I said before: we need a new generation of pilots, like the generation I used to know 20 years ago when I was in the cabin of an old 747-SP. Pilots who have respect for their employer (thus leaving management decisions for them). Pilots who have respect for their investors (thus not "Davignon, open your wallet"). Pilots who have respect for passengers (thus not treatening to go on a wildcat strike). Pilots who understand that they are well paid (any non-pilot will regard 7.000 euro gross per month as a very high salary). Pilots who understand that the golden era of making money in this business is over (Singapore Airlines being the exception).

(answer to your question: I admit: my first reply about 1408/71 was too early, but I was more reacting on your statement that there cannot be a European Legislation because there is no European Constitution yet. By the way: 1408/71 has been amended.)

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 13 May 2007, 11:22

Well 2500€ gross per month for a starter is quite good !! How many jobs are paid that good for young starters coming from school ? Not that many !!

Not many? Maybe true, but as a pilot you are not extra paid when you fly during weekends or public holidays, you will not get a company car, you don't get extra money for flying during the night, you have flights starting at 5 or 6 in the morning and working sometimes 14 hrs. And the next day it starts over again. Every 6 months you need to do a check where you can pass or fail. Every year a medical check where, again, you can pass or fail. A pilot has many high stress periods during a flight, sometimes we have to make though decissions which can lead to an accident or not. You can't compare a job as a pilot to a 9 to 5 job. Sorry. It's not possible!! I fly for fun, after 10 years it's still like a (paid) hobby but I know that it can be over due to a simple car accident.
Most of the young pilot's don't get the money from their parents and if so , most of them have to pay it back. If you study for engineer, you don't have to pay €100'000!! Think about that. If anyone thinks that we are overpaid, then go to a flying school and take lessons...then you will see what we are talking about !!
But still, I love my job more than 100%

Pilots who understand that the golden era of making money in this business is over (Singapore Airlines being the exception).

Outside Belgium, you will still find the Golden Era (less than before but it's still there)..and you don't have to look far away!! Thant's why the Belgian carriers are loosing pilots at a high rate!

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 13 May 2007, 11:27

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:
Avro wrote:
haflinger wrote: For example a VLM copilot earns about 2500€ gross a month and has a flight pay of 300€/month
----------------------> 1800€/monts nett!
Well 2500€ gross per month for a starter is quite good !! How many jobs are paid that good for young starters coming from school ? Not that many !!
Well AVRO, a co-pilot is not always a starter. Often a starter needs to do 5 years of co-piloting at least to be elligible for the left-hand seat.
And 1800€/month is not enough, remember you need to reimburse the 1200€ for your loan in the first 12 years of your carreer. This means thats as co-pilot, you will have 1800-1200=600€ for a living.

You wouldn t need to take out a loan to become postman, would you?

First of all I don't want to be against you pilots on the contrary I admire your jobs. It was also my dream to become a pilot, but my bad eyes obliged me to do something else... That's why I ended at university instead of inside the cockpit..

Where I don't agree is when you compare the salary with the loan some pilots have to pay.. You are not obliged to take a loan if you want to become a pilot (even if the vast majority of people are more or less forced to do so because of their finincial situation). From the salary perspective it's certainly not a bad paid job as I said. How many peopledon't even get 2500€ gross salary ? I saw a list with the official baremas in belgium for starters and was quite shocked.

However I agree that the government should do something for those loans. Why don't they give to the pilots having a loan a special fiscal regime so that it's easier for them to pay back the debts ? Or simply subsidise the pilot studies as they heavily subsidies university studies ?
This would certainly help them in the first years of their career.

Chris

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 13 May 2007, 11:33

FlyA330 wrote:
Well 2500€ gross per month for a starter is quite good !! How many jobs are paid that good for young starters coming from school ? Not that many !!
Not many? Maybe true, but as a pilot you are not extra paid when you fly during weekends or public holidays, you will not get a company car, you don't get extra money for flying during the night, you have flights starting at 5 or 6 in the morning and working sometimes 14 hrs. And the next day it starts over again. Every 6 months you need to do a check where you can pass or fail. Every year a medical check where, again, you can pass or fail. A pilot has many high stress periods during a flight, sometimes we have to make though decissions which can lead to an accident or not. You can't compare a job as a pilot to a 9 to 5 job. Sorry. It's not possible!!

To make things clear ! I'm not comparing it to a 9 to 5 job

I was comparing it to a job where you do not get paid for extra hours, do not get paid extra if you work the weekend. And where you're working more than 40hours a week having a lot of stress and responsibility as well......

But as I said I don't see why one should compare the salary with the loan they made !!! You are not obliged to take such a loan so why should the companies pay you more ? It's the government who should maybe subsidize the pilot studies as they do for university studies !!!

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 13 May 2007, 11:44

You are not obliged to take a loan if you want to become a pilot (even if the vast majority of people are more or less forced to do so because of their finincial situation)

Not everybody has rich parents. We have to avoid that becomming a pilot is only for the rich kids. Apart from the €100'000 for the school, most ab-initio's have to pay for their type-rating (another min €25'000 and sometimes upto €50'000) when they have their job at an airline.

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 13 May 2007, 11:58

Please, Avro, not obliged???

How was I supposed to finance my training, then?

And don't say: "you were not obliged to become a pilot"
Pilot is not anymore a job for rich-born people, and that's good!

This being said, I agree the salary is good when the loan is paid back.
The point is, it is lower than in a lot of other countries, and that's the main reason why people are leaving.

And when LX says we need a new generation of pilots, maybe he spent too much time in Japan were employees are dedicated for life to their job (or maybe spent too much time in a sheep ranch!). But it isn't so in Belgium, or in Europe at all (and here I don't speak only for pilots)
Even guys in HR told me they would accept the same job somewhere else if paid twice what they get.

And you, LX, are you so afraid of changes, you would refuse the same job you have, but paid a lot more?

I don't think so, furthermore, you can find that better paid job without moving from Belgium.

Pilots HAVE to move from Belgium (appart going to Netjet and Ryan) and that's the only reason why Belgium still got pilots at the time.

But adding to this topic: aviation is always fluctuating, now it's doing OK, but in 5 years? Maybe this will be another down, and Belgian airlines (if not going bankrupt) will again find a lot of pilots on the market, who knows?

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 13 May 2007, 12:05

FlightMate wrote:Please, Avro, not obliged???

How was I supposed to finance my training, then?

And don't say: "you were not obliged to become a pilot"
Pilot is not anymore a job for rich-born people, and that's good!

I never said that the pilot job was only for the rich people !! I never said that you didn't have to do that job... Please read my entire comment !!!!! If you read it entirley you'll see that I agree that it's difficult to pay back the loans and that the government should do something for it. I just don't agree with the mentality to say that it's the employer who has to pay you more... Why doesn't the government subsidize the pilot studies as they do with university studies ? That's the key problem IMHO.

Yes nobody obliges people to make a loan for their pilot studies that's a fact, you cannot deny it. However nearly everybody has to take a loan I agree (I would also have to take a loan).

Chris

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 13 May 2007, 12:18

I know you didn't say that, when I wrote "please don't say:" I meant, don't bring this argument in any future reply :p

sorry about that, wrongly written.

And I agree, the government might do something about it, but it ain't so in a lot of countries.

In big airlines, they have a cadet scheme, so the airline actually pays for the initial training.
Nowadays, Low cost are making the pilots pay for their type-rating... (that's totally the opposite

(

So yes in Belgium, the solution might be an help from the government, but it won't come unless the airlines beg for it, when they will be unable to hire qualified people.

1V1 · Post by **1V1** » 13 May 2007, 12:38

LX you say we need a "new generation" of pilots and immediately you add "like the pilots you knew 20 years ago". Back to the past? In 20 years the world changed you know. 20 Years ago you did not have to worry about your pension, you did not have to pay your training, you had better FT/DT and if you compare to today's salary you could indeed have a big house and 3 cars. No wonder they were happy.

Singapore Airlines an exception? LX you don't know what you're saying. A captain with a "good" type rating is offered between 10 en 15.000 dollar a month. Check Park Av. or any job offer from a serious carrier. The problem nowadays is that you need to make as much money as you can on the most possible shortest time because you never know what tomorrow will bring. Propositions like the one you did about taxing the pilots more will only increase the shortage. Large companies have much more options than the Belgian carriers and eventualy they will suck away all skilled pilots. You think small, think global.