What future for SN ????

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Flybe
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Post by Flybe »

Hi everyone,

Here's something I would like to throw in the group for everyone, not because it's the thruth, not because it is the only way forward, just because it is one of the many interpretations of the current situation of Bru.Air. And this is my interpretation. :)

Firstly, I would like to comment on Bru.Air missing the entrepreneurial spirit. It has to be said that this is correct, but what are the reasons behind it? Willingness of the management? Maybe. But the fact that they are not a completely new airline, but an airline that started up on the remains of a carrier that had a high cost base for sure has to do with it. They cut back then, but be sure that they still started up on a higher cost base than a completely new carrier would/could. This has an effect on how cost-effective an airline can be. Entrepreneurial new airlines use this low cost-base in their advantage to attract a clientele, and still many new airlines fail. This already made SN at the time a success. They didn't colapse. But the effect of the higher cost-base still is felt now. Bru.air can't just do what it wants. They don't have the investors willing to invest in those risks. And they will never have, since their structural costs are too high, and resistance to reduce those costs (if they would want to) is even higher.

Secondly, I think that Bru.air did well the past years. In a time where many new airlines don't even see their first flight take of before they go bancrupt, SN and now Bru.air makes even a modest profit (very modest indeed, but it still is a profit). Yes they are not groing like coal, yes they are not buying new airplanes, but is it necesary? They are profitable.

It has been said that 6 years have been lost. I disagree. It is not because Bru.air does not have a strategy to grow like coal, that it is a bad strategy. Six years have been lost, means as much as saying that a new airline that starts up now has no chance because they didn't start up 6 years ago. Opportunities are always there, and will alwyas keep arising, also in the future. It is not because Bru.air doesn't take on all opportunities now that that brandmarks their future. Africa is the next opportunity, indeed. But after that another region will become "the opportunity of the day", as Asia is exactly that today.

Being a regional airline is bad? Why? If it is profitable? Look at it like this: The EU is more and more (in aviation perspective) evolving to an American model with point to point traffic. Whereas now the EU is still heavily hub-biased. Maybe Bru.Air is skipping that step and is actually being (too) innovative for its time, here in the EU, by going for a point to point strategy. We all now their modest attemps in France for point to point traffic. Why not in a few years on international level. The EU-US open skies are perfectly on time. That's where we are going to: point to point. And that's exactly the opportunity for "small" regional carriers such as Bru.air.

Basically I do not think that Bru.air is doing so bad. Of course there is always room for improvement. But you have to take into account the complex relations that exsist in every company, especially in the airline industry. Many people can easily block you. But one thing is sure: in order to see that Bru.air isn't doing that bad in their niche (regional carriers) is that we need to step of our vision of Bru.air as a globally important player. It isn't, and the question has to be asked: does it even want to be? Being a global player isn't a measurement of being successfull.

To end, I qoute sn-remember:
Never forget that all successfull entreprises of today started with a bright dream !
Thousands of succesfull entreprises started with a bright dream and became big.

Thousands entreprises started with a bright dream and became bankrupt.

Hundreds of thousands entreprises started with a modest dream, are now of a modest size, but successfull in their niche.

Greets,

Pieter

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »

sn-remember wrote:I would target the "critical operational mass" (if I may say so) around 7 daily rotations there.
7 daily rotations means seven dedicated aircraft.
They have problems keeping four in the air.
So make it eight dedicated aircraft? This means doubling the fleet.
How they gonna do that?

About Cargolux.
In Sabena's time, the airline had cargo capacity. Upper deck capacity on the 747's and DC10's. Capacity on B707c. All that vanished too...

In 1982-3*, I was secretary of the BAR (Board of Airline Representatives in LUX), with 'Loftleidirs**' still in key positions. I was then contacted for transmitting a message to my Sabena HQ. The offer was then that SN could acquire 33% of Cargolux.
The offer was turned down promptly, not within a week, within 24h. Stupid people indeed.
As a SN Rep it was my duty to report only to SN HQ. And the people in LUX who gave the mission only to transmit the offer to SN. Oh boys, do I regret that I could not speak to others in Antwerpen*** as an example. But (company) loyalty prevented me to do so. Maybe my mistake...

btw, Cargolux, has LUX and Cargo in it. What's in a name, you might ask.
What I can say is that the destination or origin of the cargo o/b the planes is not for the Luxembourg economy, except for the banking business, and mostly goes to Germany.

And note this:
Luxembourg, Küsnacht, 20 December 2005 - Today, M. Karl Wüthrich, Co-liquidator of SAirLines and the Luxembourgish shareholders of Cargolux, under the coordination of M. Marc Hoffmann, Chairman of the Board of Luxair, have jointly announced their agreement on a transaction providing for the acquisition of the 33.7 % of Cargolux shares currently held by SAirLines. The transaction will be executed by Luxair on behalf of all the Luxembourgish shareholders (the current shareholders are : Luxair, 34.9 % - BGL Investment Partners, 11.5 % - BCEE, 8.8 % - SNCI, 8.6 % - Lux-AVANTAGE, 2.2 %).

*1982 – The lean years:
The early 1980s will certainly be remembered as the years of struggling for survival in Cargolux’s history.

1981 was a difficult year of operation, caused by the continuing upward spiraling of the fuel prices and escalating financing cost. At this time, the company had in its possession the most efficient cargo aircraft existing in the world, but the demand for air transport had not grown at the previous rate – yet the availability of widebody and belly capacity had increased tremendously.

In the latter part of 1981, Cargolux became more affected by the economic situation and the exploding interest rates. A program of measures was initiated at the end of 1982 to strengthen the company by restructuring its financial basis and organization. The government bank, Société Nationale de Crédits et d'Investissements (SNCI), became the new shareholder of Cargolux in parity with other Luxembourg banks such as BCEE, BGL, BIL and the Kreditbank. Mr. Sten Grotenfelt was appointed new President and CEO of the company.

Despite this difficult time of reorganization, Cargolux managed to strengthen its commercial activities and secured its strong Far East activities by an extension of a joint venture with China Airlines. This, combined with a strong North American market, brought the daily utilization of the B747 to an average of 13 hours. The DC-8-63s were extensively utilized for ad hoc charters and leasing to other carriers.
1987 – Lufthansa takes share in Cargolux:
Lufthansa obtained a 24.5 percent stake in Cargolux capital and Luxair increased their share in Cargolux from 10 percent to 24.53 percent. The Salén Shipping Company sold its shares.
1997 – SAir Logistics acquires shareholding in Cargolux:
In September 1997, SAir Logistics AG acquired the 24.5 per cent Lufthansa shares in Cargolux.

**SN received 1000 & thousands of Loftleidirs passengers on the N.Atlantic route.
***Certainly people around and with an other Kredietbank would have been interested.

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »


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beaucaire
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Post by beaucaire »

Ma compagnie préféré en Europe -la TAP- à réussi de confirmer la livraison de trois Airbus A330-200 de la AUA ...
Cela lui fait une flotte Long-courrier de 11 x A330 et 4 x A 340, superbe réussite pour la TAP, qui a su définir une stratégie en fer et n'a jamais perdu son âme.
Comme c'est toujours les petits détails qui font des grandes remarques -il y' a quelques années sur un vols A340 entre Orly et Lisbonne, on me demande si je veut un vrais espresso...! Et ça fut un vrais espresso sortant d'une machine espresso installé à bord ( c'est pas chinois mais fait des passagers heureux..!)
La TAP offre un rapport qualité –prix intéressante, un service impeccable, des équipages souriants,des avions propre (eh oui –c’est pas évident ..) et ,en plus ,une flotte neuve et attractive.
La Sabena aurais pu copier le modèle TAP vers l’Afrique –la Belgique étant d’une taille similaire au Portugal mais avec la EEC comme base de clientèle – c’est à ne plus rien comprendre !

Sorry

- I was saying that my preferred European company TAP was getting three A330's from AUA,bringing their fleet to 11x330 and 4 x A340..
Their strategy is fully paying off and I did compare their country -size-wise- to Belgium,who could have implemented a similar strategy on Africa.
They -TAP- offer a great service,good price-performance ratio-a mdern fleet and offer some minor perks like rzal espresso on many flights,a small detail that counts for many travellers..
Sorry for the French-it just came out of me...
Last edited by beaucaire on 11 Apr 2007, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

beaucaire said sorry and translated his message in english, thus it's OK.

He is right : there are, around us, several small countries like us who have prosperous air companies : Portugal and TAP, Ireland and Aer Lingus (and also another one, I think), the Netherlands and KLM, etc.
What does prevent Belgium to do the same ?

SN30952
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Post by SN30952 »

airazurxtror wrote:What does prevent Belgium to do the same ?
Probably the same reason that would hold my hands off the keyboard writing what I know: They and I can't afford it.... :lol:

Cartman
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Post by Cartman »

airazurxtror wrote:beaucaire said sorry and translated his message in english, thus it's OK.

He is right : there are, around us, several small countries like us who have prosperous air companies : Portugal and TAP, Ireland and Aer Lingus (and also another one, I think), the Netherlands and KLM, etc.
What does prevent Belgium to do the same ?
It is not only a matter of money, but also a matter of historic reasons.

The Dutch have always explored and conquered the world, same for the Portugese, the French and the British. The Irish have a large base of potential customers in the US because America (especially the East Coast) has a large population of Irish origin.

Except for the great lakes area in Africa, Belgium has no historical intrest anywhere in the world, and there are no large populations of Belgian origin anywhere. Add to that the lack of national pride which prevents Belgians of preferring their own national airline above others, the lack of entrepreneurship, and the fact that Belgians mostly go on vacation in the surrounding countries or to certain mass-tourism destinations.
I'm in love with my lust, burning angelwings to dust, I wish I had your angel tonight...
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beaucaire
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Post by beaucaire »

If you take the Finns,they are not really what I would call a colonial power..
Yet,they manage to grow Finnair into a nice carrier with an ever increasing Intercontinental network,new fleet orders,great service and an agressive feeder concept (their orders for the Embraer fleet is thought to feed mainly their Long-haul Airbusses..)
Example is ,they now feed 9 German cities into HEL,latest being Nuremberg,getting a daily Embraer 170 flight .
I agree on the issue of lack of national pride in Belgium-which is stupid,because the country has a combined strenghts that could create miracles...If Flemish,Wallons and Brusselaers could jump over their shadow- what a great country that would make...

Ducatibiker
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Post by Ducatibiker »

SN is dead - and Virgin management took over - red is beautiful.
At management level - no more 'passion about you' - us the frequent business traveller.

Future of this company: to be sold - Brussels airport could be of interest. The airline itself has not much interest in its present current business plan or lack of. The customer base is neglected and high yield passengers are going elsewhere.

Since there is no more business class, I am using other airlines where the in flight team has the means to give a proper service. I am sad because I lose time in FRA or CDG to transit...but on board, travel is still a pleasure even when you fly several times a week.
What I hear about those airlines make dream !

Brussels Airlines does not make me dream at all.

The immediate future: try to make as much money as possible.
Why not having discounts/promotions on in flight beverages ? Pay extra for window seat ? Pay for the lounge (oops already the case except if you are Platinum/Gold) and a Belgian Touch: charge for the bathroom...

I am sad because I met some very dedicated staff on board who knew how much I was paying for a ticket. For them, it must be even worse to have to face such 'voodoo' management.

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

Ducatibiker wrote:
Since there is no more business class, I am using other airlines where the in flight team has the means to give a proper service. I am sad because I lose time in FRA or CDG to transit...but on board, travel is still a pleasure even when you fly several times a week.
What I hear about those airlines make dream !

Brussels Airlines does not make me dream at all.
I am afraid there is a misunderstanding : Brussels Airlines is an LCC - Etienne Davignon recently said it in so many words.
viewtopic.php?t=20859&sid=e7cbe45dded24 ... 5484713d45

SN30952
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Africa is not a niche, its a hut, airline wise spoken.

Post by SN30952 »

beaucaire wrote:If you take the Finns, they are not really what I would call a colonial power.......,they now feed 9 German cities into HEL,l atest being Nuremberg...
Indeed nothing to do with a colonial Finn.
But wasn't Sabena at one time not flying to DUS, CGN, HAM, FRA, STR, MUC, NUE?
And why was that? Because these lines were feeding the long haul.
The Finn-German lines are feeding Finnair's Asian longhauls, that soared 40% this Winter....
Their Asian lines are volume makers, something you can't hardly say about SN's actual African lines.
The last Dakar episode illustrated that well: an SN Airbus miscarries, and there are not enough rooms to accommodate the passengers, come on, how can one develop traffic volumes on such destinations. A chocolaterie there might be an option, but not the development or future of an airline.
Africa, if the airline is not African, is at the best an accessory. SAA, the best and biggest African airline is making losses, is it not too audacious to think, that if a African can't make profit, a non-African can, considering its higher overhead and operating costs?
The only reason an European airline would go there is because it serves other interests. Not its interests. Africa is not a niche, it's a hut, airline wise spoken.
Lets look it in the face: everybody who goes to work in Africa does it for money. The money one makes there has to be shared with the government, what is left for an airline then? The costs...
Ducatibiker wrote:SN is dead...
Brussels Airlines does not make me dream at all.
I am sad because I met some very dedicated staff on board who knew how much I was paying for a ticket. For them, it must be even worse to have to face such 'voodoo' management.
You made my heart bleed, Ducatibiker.
Sabena was sold by outsiders.
BruAir will be sold by insiders.
The first sale did not improve it, the second might. That leaves a tin(kle) hope.
Last edited by SN30952 on 12 Apr 2007, 10:57, edited 1 time in total.

Ducatibiker
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Post by Ducatibiker »

airazurxtror wrote:
Ducatibiker wrote:
Since there is no more business class, I am using other airlines where the in flight team has the means to give a proper service. I am sad because I lose time in FRA or CDG to transit...but on board, travel is still a pleasure even when you fly several times a week.
What I hear about those airlines make dream !

Brussels Airlines does not make me dream at all.
I am afraid there is a misunderstanding : Brussels Airlines is an LCC - Etienne Davignon recently said it in so many words.
viewtopic.php?t=20859&sid=e7cbe45dded24 ... 5484713d45
Yes, you are right about the philophy and E. Davignon declaration BUT I am buying a ticket with what I read on Page 02 of the timetable:
Flying with Brussels Airlines gives you the choice of two fantastic new economy products on over 50 European destinations, and Business and Economy class on our medium - and long-haul networks.
Shall we then say this is misleading and confusing information ?

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

Ducatibiker wrote:
Yes, you are right about the philophy and E. Davignon declaration BUT I am buying a ticket with what I read on Page 02 of the timetable:
Flying with Brussels Airlines gives you the choice of two fantastic new economy products on over 50 European destinations, and Business and Economy class on our medium - and long-haul networks.
Shall we then say this is misleading and confusing information ?
Perhaps LCC in Europe and "legacy" elsewhere on the long-haul network ?
As you say, it's all rather confusing...

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beaucaire
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Post by beaucaire »

Either you convert SN into a real Low Cost- and not a Low Fare - or you come up with a real project !
Currently this airline is -in the eyes of many business-travellers -a nonsens airline and in the eyes of Low-Cost users not a Low Cost neither !
So what !
A country like Belgium has a relative strong base for a REAL airline with a decent service concept and a true International network.The merger between Virgin and Sabena is an absolute stupid decision with neither improved quality,neither an improved immage,neither dramatic cheaper fares,neither offering the base for a decent feeder-network into Brussels Long-haul..which doesn't exist anyhow !
It is sad that nobody in this forum seems to find good reasons and arguments to change things .Belgium -and Brussels particularly -are not some kind of third world territories with no local base.Why on earth do KLM transport five times more passengers than SN ????
An airport like Brussles does far less traffic than Palma de Mallora- a tiny island in the med !
The Netherlands are not five times more dynamic or cleverer,neither have they five times more colonies or whatever foreign ties - it's a matter of national consensus .The rift between the two communities seem to have wiped out all common sens in this country !
What Etienne Davignon said about SN is complete B.S. -it's not a Low Cost it's a hybrid airlines without profile !
If people discuss the fate of SN here,it's because they seem to care to a certain extent,otherwise they would't waste their time writing posts.
To me it is sickening what's going on in Belgium -but you have to be an outsider to realize the waste of energy and good will.
( I spent 15 years in Brussels ,so I know a little bit about Belgium..)

A320joske
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Post by A320joske »

Why on earth do KLM transport five times more passengers than SN ????
Because all Belgians are flying the dutch bird now...

Concerning the rest of your posting - you are right, unfortunately.

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Post by jan_olieslagers »

beaucaire wrote:The Netherlands are not five times more dynamic or cleverer
Are you very sure?

sn-remember
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What happened to the rest of the postings ???

Post by sn-remember »

What happened to the rest of the postings on this thread ? (2 postings seen last time yesterday 18H00 and I can't find them today ??? )

Not that I think that it was important what I was writing about KL size but I wanted to reply to Winnie's interesting posting ..

Can the administrator explain if I did something wrong ?

Thank you

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sn26567
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Re: What happened to the rest of the postings ???

Post by sn26567 »

sn-remember wrote:Can the administrator explain if I did something wrong ?
You did nothing wrong. The explanation is here: message-from-jaguarpc-com-changing-servers-t21130.html
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Post by sn-remember »

thank you :wink:

fcw
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Post by fcw »

There might be a future for BruAir, although I doubt it is a legal one... Just tried to book a ticket, and automatically they include an insurance of 32€. I think this is selling to things together and forbidden by law. Not very customer friendly either. :shock:

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