Virgin Express B737-300WL

fostro · Post by **fostro** » 11 Oct 2005, 10:30

Why they don't try to get any Airbus A319 or A320? There are many of them in use. I think there are certainly some 2nd (or 3rd, 4th) hands available at an affordable price, wouldn't be?

This would make sense as SNBA & VEX are in the same holding. Staff could be placed anywhere in time of extra needs. Aircrafts can be switched from one to the other in high season. Maintenance is done by the same company (ex-SN Technics).

The only thing is: who is going to pay it... But to my opinion it's cheaper to use relative new Airbus A319/A320 in stead of old fashioned and old (in age) Boeing 737-300/-400 and "renew" them with winglets to save costs...
Come on: who believes this will really save costs???

L-1011 · Post by **L-1011** » 11 Oct 2005, 12:41

fostro wrote:Come on: who believes this will really save costs???

I do

The lease on the 733/4 is cheap beacuse it's already an "older" plane with a lot of them being currently retired early for NG's. The VEX planes are not that old, some of them are man. year: 1996 if I remember correctly, which is still quite new in aviation.

Secondly, the fuel price is increasing very fast nowadays, and the winglets will enable VEX to save money by burning less (hey and it's good for the environment

) And because of the high fuel price they will recuperate their investment fatser than several months ago. And maybe the investment will be split beween the lessor and the lessee... Somebody info on that

Perhaps it'll save the passengers money, by enabling VEX to offer lower fares

(one can always dream)

regi wrote: An Airbus is like a japanese car: it has all the goodies included, such as winglets.

I sure hope they are more reliable than them

Oh and the plastic did not look that cheap inside

ciao,
TriStar

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 11 Oct 2005, 13:35

fostro wrote:Why they don't try to get any Airbus A319 or A320? There are many of them in use. I think there are certainly some 2nd (or 3rd, 4th) hands available at an affordable price, wouldn't be?

I don't get it.

Why do people always want VEX to replace the B737's with 32s planes. Just as a reminder. SN has 3 A319's and VEX has 10 B737's. IMHO it's more likely to see the 3 A319's go in the future than the 10 B737's.

As L-1011 mentioned the B737's of VEX are not the oldest one flying around. Some are quite young.
And the fact that TV will install winglets on them for sure states that they will keep them for some time. Otherwise they wouldn't invest in such devices. Would they ?

Chris

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 11 Oct 2005, 14:55

I just want to mention this:

Everybody is always talking about the possible harmonisation of the SNBA and the VEX fleets. We shouldn't forget however that although SNBA and VEX belong to the SN airholding, they still are two seperate business plans. Therefore, I don't think that they will take the commonality of the two fleets into account when deciding about which aircraft to use. Instead, I think they will try to maximally fit the chosen type of aircraft to the airlines requirements (if the types are the same, the better

)
I just think that in first instance they will be looking for other types of harmonisations that allow for savings to be made.

greetz

bAIR

pilatus · Post by **pilatus** » 11 Oct 2005, 17:58

Winglets will be fitted on the B737-300 aircrafts (5 total). Got just confirmation from my contact at VEX. The idee behind this plan is to safe in engine time and feul.

Greetz,

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 11 Oct 2005, 18:59

pilatus wrote:Winglets will be fitted on the B737-300 aircrafts (5 total). Got just confirmation from my contact at VEX. The idee behind this plan is to safe in engine time and feul.

Thanks for the confirmation Pilatus! Can't wait to see 737-300 with winglets

Must be so nice 8)

GORKI · Post by **GORKI** » 11 Oct 2005, 19:07

If the winglet-story is true,it indicates at least that these aircraft will stay for some time
Which is logic as these planes are leased and operated at low price and are not so old
OO-VEN born 97
VEG,VEH born 98
VEN born 99
except LTM 1991...
anyway investment is done in Belgian aviation

and winglets is a good start however we prefer more planes (like the rest of the world)

pilatus · Post by **pilatus** » 11 Oct 2005, 19:24

And to complete my post, Sabena Technics will take the honors to install the WL.

Greetz,

realplaneshaveprops · Post by **realplaneshaveprops** » 11 Oct 2005, 20:16

Finally some more winglets at BRU!
Love the view of a blended winglet. The 320 family winglets are too small to be beautiful in my eyes.

Koen

767flightattendant · Post by **767flightattendant** » 11 Oct 2005, 20:34

I don't know the average age of vex fleet, must be around 9.8 years as they also have 3 -400's (oo-vbr/oo-vej/oo-vek) born last century in 1989!!!!!!!!!!!

I heard that Virgin was going to BUY these winglets to fit their LEASED 737-300 fleet. If they get rid of their classic 737's , can they use these winglets on NG 737's ?

As said earlier the interior need some urgent refreshing as well, sometime I have the impression that Virgin doesn't care about it, as if they think they were the only low-budget operator in Europe. Well German Wings, Vueling, SkyEurope and even Ryanair have far nicer cabin interiors.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 11 Oct 2005, 20:43

767flightattendant wrote:I don't know the average age of vex fleet, must be around 9.8 years as they also have 3 -400's (oo-vbr/oo-vej/oo-vek) born last century in 1989!!!!!!!!!!!

Read the statements above and you'll see that the B733 fleet is very young !!

I heard that Virgin was going to BUY these winglets to fit their LEASED 737-300 fleet. If they get rid of their classic 737's , can they use these winglets on NG 737's ?

Maybe the lessor doesn't want to do the investment

I don't know however if they can be used on the NG's. because the ing of the NG is different...

As said earlier the interior need some urgent refreshing as well, sometime I have the impression that Virgin doesn't care about it, as if they think they were the only low-budget operator in Europe. Well German Wings, Vueling, SkyEurope and even Ryanair have far nicer cabin interiors. And they don't smell like as if you are going to catch a contagious disease.

Well the interior oculd indeed need some refurbishment. But it is less urgent to replace than to save fuel by adding winglets.

Chris

waldova · Post by **waldova** » 11 Oct 2005, 22:47

jan_olieslagers wrote:
waldova wrote:I don't understand why Virgin is investing in this winglets. I truly believe they should start investing in renewing their fleet instead of keeping the planes.
I'm afraid for you the Virgin management know what they are doing. Either they have more info than you, or stronger brains. You surely don't believe they decided this on a Monday morning without any thinking?

I know that the Virgin management is not really a management to say 'wow' too! Come on. Every year they make debts and then they decide to make their fleet smaller. Do you really think that that is the solution? I think that that just makes it worse. So you tell me if this management is as competend as you say. Also about the winglets. Ok I'm sure they thought it trought but did they really think that far ahead? They should start changing their image to a much younger company with much younger planes. Maybe these planes are an investment now but it will be well worth it. You will get new and more costumers if they have nicer and newer planes. Also the cost will go down a lot, especially the fuel price and the operating cost per passenger/mile. I really believe this is not the solution at all.

jan_olieslagers wrote:
waldova wrote:But if they put winglets it means that they plan on keeping those 737 for a long time to come. I think at least they should also change then the interior of their fleet as this for the moment looks quite old fashioned and old.
Yes agreed they'll wish to make the investment worth its money - but mind you that might also be reflected in a higher sales price. Still, as someone else said, the B737's are far more numerous in the combinad SN/VX fleet than A319's so more likely to stay.
As for the interior: I'm afraid this point is less important to the management than fuel economy... maybe some day when budgets allow...

I don't see how this will reflect in the higher sales price. Why comes that companys as Ryanair and other LCC have still low prices, a lot lower then Virgin, while they have all new kind of planes? Because if you tell me know that you trully believe that Virgis has low prices then suggest taking a look at the Virgin website. Do you see what they charge even as taxes? These taxes are much higher then any other LCC in Europe.
And for the moment Virgin is loosing a lot of money because the passengers think their interior looks old. So in my opinion this would not be such a dumm investment. It will attract more costumers and because of that maybe higher profites.

Also about the fleet harmonisations with SN. If these two companys are part of one holding, namely SN Air Holding, I think they should think about harmonisation. Also I think that then Virgin should change their fleet to airbus. Airbus is namely trying to make all their planes, A32X, A330 and A340 one type rating. So it would be in the interest of SNBA to keep the Airbus fleet they have and if they want to be more flexible between the two companys I think they should think about fleet harmonization and I think Virgin should start investing in renewing their Boeings in Airbusses. Otherwise I think that the way Virgin is doing now their will be not much left over of Virgin Express in 10 years because a company that keeps losing money will not have the money at the end to change their fleet. They should do it now!

Dude320 · Post by **Dude320** » 11 Oct 2005, 23:18

waldova wrote:
Otherwise I think that the way Virgin is doing now their will be not much left over of Virgin Express in 10 years because a company that keeps losing money will not have the money at the end to change their fleet. They should do it now!

SN ( Sabena) could do it for decades and decades...

Don t really get your post...

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 12 Oct 2005, 11:05

waldova wrote: They should start changing their image to a much younger company with much younger planes.

Changing image maybe, but younger planes ? Their B733 fleet is very young !! I don't see why planes that are not even 10 year old should be obsolete...;

waldova wrote: Also about the fleet harmonisations with SN. If these two companys are part of one holding, namely SN Air Holding, I think they should think about harmonisation. Also I think that then Virgin should change their fleet to airbus. Airbus is namely trying to make all their planes, A32X, A330 and A340 one type rating. So it would be in the interest of SNBA to keep the Airbus fleet they have and if they want to be more flexible between the two companys I think they should think about fleet harmonization and I think Virgin should start investing in renewing their Boeings in Airbusses.

Same type ratings and fleet commonality is a big factor indeed. But it's certainly not the only factor. I've once heard that Boeings are generally cheaper in maintenance than Airbus planes (however I'm not 100% sure) . So money could be saved there as well....

Chris

TWA · Post by **TWA** » 12 Oct 2005, 11:22

http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/?fil ... %20Express

This link will show you that Vex has an "average" fleet age of 11 Years.
Within Europe as fas as I know, this must be one of the oldest fleets today.

Their B733 will look nice once they get new winglets, new cabin, new engines and a new fresh paint job....but I suppose it will just be the winglets for now.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 12 Oct 2005, 11:41

TWA,

I was talking about the B733 fleet and not the B734 one

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 12 Oct 2005, 11:56

really, I don't understand why some people state that the Virgin Management doesn't know what they are doing. In fact this matter is very simple, if the following holds, the investment is worthwhile:

the net present value (correction for inflation over the years) of your initial investment (the winglets) is smaller than the net present value of your fuel consumption per flight hour x price per gallon x projected number of flight hours to be flown with the aircraft...simple as that.

Off course there is also the matter that VEX doesn't own the planes but leases them...who cares: if they calculated that this investment has a sufficient return, they should do it. Maybe the fact that they lease these aircraft can even be an advantage: the value of the plane goes up because it becomes less fuel consuming

it is easier for the lessor to find customers for this airplane, be it lessors or buyers

VEX can maybe convince the lessor to participate in the investment

VEX happy because they consume less fuel

lessor happy because the value of his plane rises without having to do a full investment

C'ya

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 12 Oct 2005, 12:14

BTW on a side note (less important). Does someone know whether the logo of VEX will be painted on the Winglets ? and if yes on both sides or not ?

Chris

waldova · Post by **waldova** » 12 Oct 2005, 13:20

teddybAIR wrote:really, I don't understand why some people state that the Virgin Management doesn't know what they are doing. In fact this matter is very simple, if the following holds, the investment is worthwhile

Maybe the management knows what they are doing but the fact is that Virgin is losing money for the moment. Even though they have good load factors on their flights they are still losing money. And as this happens they start decreasing their fleet size what in my opinion is not the solution to this problem, this only makes it worse. So I think something has to change drastically for Virgin otherwise they will really not exist anymore in ten years.