KLM plane bound for Mexico denied entry into US airspace.

[luchtzak]

KLM spokesmen didn't knew the reason why the KLM 747 had to return to Amsterdam, he thinks the US authorities have a different blacklist than Europe.

He also said that KLM lost a lot of money to fuel, ATC, extra crew, hotel for passengers, etc... 10.000s of €€ costs nobody knows who will pay them.

Trevor: You said it yourself: Maybe the US should have no security at all.

Well, before 9/11 the US had no security (or lacks security) at all on intra-US routes (remember that family and friends could go with you to the gate?) and that was the main reason the terrorists could hijack and use planes as weapons of mass destruction.

Not only Americans but the entire world was shocked about 9/11 and actions had to be taken so this would never happen again, but sending a commercial airline back to Europe goes beyond my understanding.

[SN30952]

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard in a long time.

Me too*, as would the KLM attack the US....
But I was not surprised when you wrote "one of the most ridiculous statements" because you must been hearing a lot of such statements in the country you live in!

We are indeed far away from the Chicago Convention. Or from any UN-resolution, both signed by the US. It is indeed an insult to the free world.

Looks the USA in replacing the USSR.

More passengers will have understood, that transiting via the USA is a risk.
More airlines will consider alternative routes, avoiding the US.

The US closing its skies is also closing its aeronautical industries. (First the transiting, then the trading....?)
(Because) the US can close its skies, its air space, but can it protect its US-build aircraft all over the world? Euh, can it protect its trade all over the world?

Tell me, who would want to attack an Airbus, today? And, ya, September 11th was an all Boeing story....
That is is a downward spiral, isn't it?

Cant we and the Americans be more civilized? Guess not,....

We, Jetb, you mean 'We' as in (Western) Europeans?
Apart from the French and the Britons even later, all (Western) European countries stopped war after WWII. Thats 60 years ago.
Since then, most of 'We" are committed to peace.
But words like in your phrase for many people start looking more and more like an oxymoron, JetB.

*Depends which one statement is considered, of course. 8)
Oxymoron for English readers, and oxymore for the ones that read French too. Indeed, « Une chute sans gravité & Guerre propre»!

[an-148]

SN30952 wrote:
It is unlawful hindering of competitors.
American carriers are loosing a lot of transit traffic to European carriers. As a revanche they stop these carriers when they want to use US airspace.

I am not sure how to respond to this one. This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard in a long time.

I totally agree with SN30952: it's not the first time something like that happens: recently Air france and british airways had to do the same : NEVER happened to AA UA,or delta!!!

[an-148]

maybe somebody within the passengers who doesn't like pork meat

[HorsePower]

More passengers will have understood, that transiting via the USA is a risk.
More airlines will consider alternative routes, avoiding the US.

The US closing its skies is also closing its aeronautical industries. (First the transiting, then the trading....?)

That's true, look at IB Miami mini-hub. It has disappeared!

Currently, the US$ is low compared to the € (~ 1.30$ for 1 €) so it's interresting for european people to go there, but I'm not interrested myself to go there, due to unfriendly welcome WE have. If I have to transit, I will avoid US at any cost.

I'm sorry to say that, but that's my own feeling!

Regards

Seb.

[an-148]

Horse power, you are not alone to think like this:
its a real pity to see a country which was some where a kind of "eldorado", getting more and more fascit and folding on herself like this. its not very good for the future of mankind - I hope I'm wrong but if you look only at facts, you fear really for the upcoming years ALAS.

[chunk]

I posted something last week about how the US airlines are losing money because of crazy US immigration laws....long may it continue. Now us Europeans can ignore US airlines because of government policy as well as their crap service on board. No offence to NWA who weren't too bad.....the rest in my experience have been pretty poor.

Anyhow....what happened to the KLM flight is an utter disgrace and if things are really going to get that stupid then the US might as well just put up a 40,000 ft steel fence round it and stick a roof on top. What our less than unlightened friends across the water fail to understand is that someone wanting to damage their country is highly unlikely to do it using a KLM plane....it has been done already and frankly these people are STILL far less likely to get anything to assist with hijacking a plane onto a KLM flight from AMS than an airport in the US. The phrase we would use for the US action here is 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted'!

Its funny how a country containing some the most dangerous cities in the world is telling us our security isn;t good enough......

[LX-LGX]

De arrogantie van de macht (don't know how to translate it).

The U.S. rule the world, but it's civilised dictatorship.

[chunk]

De arrogantie van de macht (don't know how to translate it).

The U.S. rule the world, but it's civilised dictatorship.

I guess that is determined by how you define the word 'civilised'.

[SN30952]

Also fear is not a good master. A fear for violence?
Certain forms and degrees of violence are socially and/or legally sanctioned, while others constitute crimes within a specific society. Different societies apply different standards.
Killing is in Texas accepted by a majority, when it is done by law in jails...
And stopping to feed articifially a 15 years comatose person for these same people is murder.
One american abortion is worse than killing a dozen Arabs.
Indeed ethics are not longer universal. Find 'Major doctrines of ethics" here

Hey Folks, this is a aviation forum, lets leave this discussion for a 'moral philosophy forum'.
Lets talk about the direct implications of such american decisions on aviation?

As how personal HorsePower's view is: If I have to transit, I will avoid US

[earthman]

Well, before 9/11 the US had no security (or lacks security) at all on intra-US routes (remember that family and friends could go with you to the gate?) and that was the main reason the terrorists could hijack and use planes as weapons of mass destruction.

Terrorists could hijack planes because anybody could get to the gate? I'm sure they all had tickets and whould have been let on board anyway. I also doubt their family came came with them to the gate.

I'm sure they would be able to get on board today too.

They might however have more trouble hijacking the plane; people will no longer believe that if they let the hijackers do their thing, they will be left unharmed.

Returning to the KLM plane, it is assumed that the two 'suspects' were people who were affiliated with some organization somehow linked to terror in the US; if the organization is not considered suspect in the Netherlands, they would then not be on the Dutch list. Given that the Dutch manage to acquit terror suspects who are in the possession of detailed plans of likely targets, weapons, tons of extremist correspondence, etc, I am wondering if they even have Al-Quaeda on their suspicious organizations list! It's probably listed as a harmless charity or something.

Even if the US are overreacting, at least they are being consequent. Two people were on the list, the plane was sent back home. I wouldn't want to stand in the shoes of the person responsible for the SNAFU with the KLM not having the right list though.

[SN30952]

it's civilised dictatorship.

That's also an oxymoron. More oxymora in Luchtzak

[SN30952]

Two people were on the list, the plane was sent back home. I wouldn't want to stand in the shoes of the person responsible for the SNAFU with the KLM not having the right list though.

1- This guy does not wear shoes, he wears boots.
2- Once you start making a list of your enemies, you will discover that there is NO end to that list. So don't start.

[chunk]

Two people were on the list, the plane was sent back home. I wouldn't want to stand in the shoes of the person responsible for the SNAFU with the KLM not having the right list though.

1- This guy does not wear shoes, he wears boots.
2- Once you start making a list of your enemies, you will discover that there is NO end to that list. So don't start.

Well said.....to point no.2. The plane should NOT have been sent back - end of story. The US wants everyone to cooperate with it but doesn;t trust the countries it is allies with?? If it is good enough for European security why is that not enough? Once again we suffer the backlash because of their ineptitude - where did the 9/11 planes take off from?

[earthman]

Actually, I wouldn't trust the Dutch security a single bit, they continually demonstrate that they are completely worthless.

[HorsePower]

KLM investigating incident with Mexico-bound plane barred by US authorities

Regards

Seb.

[earthman]

Actually the US got the passenger info from Mexico; they have an agreement with Mexico and Canada to exchange passenger info.

I'm starting to suspect that some 'smart in a different way' person at KLM didn't bother to check the US list because the plane wasn't going to land in the US (these kind of things happen all the time in Holland anyway), and KLM didn't give the info to the US, so, "uh, ah, it's too much trouble for me to actually check this thing."
Now KLM is saying they weren't on their list to cover up the mistake. Then they will say 'It's just an incident', while in fact nobody ever really checks any list at KLM.

This is the same kind of mentality as the absent ID check at the airport: a Dutch TV show managed to sneak people both past Passport Control AND the ID check at the gate, into a plane (to London), while each person used the other's passport. They tried it with two people who looked a little similar, then they tried it with two people who did not look similar at all! (one had glasses, they had different posture, length, hair color, etc). This was just after a big newspaper article about four businessmen who were swapping out their passports before going through all the checks at Schiphol, so you would think they were paying attention..
They even got a woman past the passport control, into Holland, while she had some guy's passport!
A while ago there was also a news item about illegal asians and africans etc getting into Holland with someone else's passports, and they just said 'not our fault, we can't tell them apart!'. (The show did the tests with white males)

[earthman]

BTW, it now occurred to me that KLM is probably saying the people weren't on their list so they can claim the delay was caused by circumstances beyond their control, thus no compensation for the passengers!

[Knight255]

I never want to see that happen again and if preventing it means that a KLM 747 has to fly back to AMS, well than so be it.

Amen brother!!!

[LX-LGX]

earthman, the way you are trying to defend the U.S. is becoming embarrassing.

Please remain with the facts. A plane with two bona fide Saudi state citizens, not on the international blacklist, flew from Holland to Mexico. The two are persona non grata in the U.S. (not in Mexico), and Big Brother therefore didn't allow the plane to use their airspace and ordered them to fly back to AMS.

It was not a Iran Air of Pakistan Airways plane: it was a plane from the Netherlands (the secretary-general of the NATO is a Dutch citizen!).

If the 2 were indeed that dangerous, the plane should have been forced to land asap, rather then giving the two suspects another 7 hours to prepare an attack.

The two pax were not arrested in Amsterdam, and they were put on a flight to London. The U.K. also didn't arrest them. So they are not that dangerous as the U.S. wants us to believe.

Now, regarding September-11th: this is not a U.S. problem only:
http://www.september11victims.com/septe ... ENSHIP.htm

The incident with the KLM-flight and your reaction makes it clear that the U.S. is making more and more enemies worldwide. The war on terrorism therefore will never be won.