African operations possible with narrow body equipment

[hakan]

The latest info about TK using B737-900ER

As per 18NOV11 GDS timetable and inventory display, latest changes to Turkish Airlines’ planned Boeing 737-900ER operation as follows.

As always additional changes remains possible.

Istanbul – Lagos – Accra eff 23DEC11 4 weekly (However, first 737-900ER on this route operates on 14DEC11)
Istanbul – Lagos eff 25DEC11 3 weekly (Overall Daily 737-900ER)
Istanbul – Sarajevo eff 29JAN12 Day x236
Istanbul – Antalya eff 30JAN12 TK2412/2413 Day 1
Istanbul – Izmir eff 31JAN12 TK2320/2321 Day 247
Istanbul – Dalaman eff 01FEB12 TK2552/2553 Day 3
Istanbul – Pristina eff 01FEB12 Day 236

Source: airline route

Above specifically mentioned routes, operational dates/days and flights are subject to change.

It looks like THY will use B737-900ER not only in Africa also in domestic and close international destinations. There are messages among Mr.Kotil's statements which were captured by you guys very well. One point about IST being east (like detour), THY is trying to establish itself in Africa. I am sure when it comes they will offer different products and prices to penetrate that market to compensate the extra miles. Some pax will be willing to fly extra hours to reach their final destinations. Let's hope B737-900ER will help THY to fulfill their plans. Everybody will be watching the performance of B737-900ER in these routes.

[Flanker]

Some end of the week inspirations.
End 2010 I said:

The big seats is a question mark for most airlines, but I think that SN has the unique opportunity to do it, simply because
-it has low load factors unlike other airlines like BA, LH, LX, IB who are all above 75% average
-it uses the same aircraft to fly short and mid-haul routes
-I want to see a A319 hub to spoke system to some of their closest West African destinations

This last one is the main argument.
When we had this big A319 debate exactly one year ago, many people didn't see what was coming.
Today, we read in the news how AF/KL is attacking SN in Africa, how DL is building up its DKR hub, how Ethiopian is ordering more and more widebodies, how Senegal Airlines is starting up with 2 A320's next month, how UA is building their own African network, how EK is growing on Asia-Africa traffic, how Egyptair, SAA and friends are considering to build their own regional airline, Spanair starting up African routes from Barcelona with the support of their new owners, etc...

Today on airliners.net, they're rolling their heads about QR buying a 49% stake in JK (Spanair).
"It doesn't make sense", "I don't understand why", "South Atlantic?", etc...
While JK does offer the possibility to open up to the South Atlantic, I think that QR's aim is to use BCN mainly as a base for Europe-Africa narrowbody ops.

It's obvious.

[Air Key West]

From December, Arkefly will fly once a week (Wednedays) from AMS to DKR with a 737. They already fly to Banjul (Gambia). Perhaps only seasonal (winter) ?
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL/Ar ... ar_Senegal

[crew1990]

Well Gambia bird fly between Banjul and Freetown to London. And there is some plan to add Dakar in winter.

[Air Key West]

AA is introducing the A321 Transcontinental = US East to West Coast v.v. with a three-class configuration including lie-flat seats in F and C :

http://www.aa.com/i18n/urls/newplanes.jsp

Since it is now proven that an airline can offer lie-flat seats on an A321 (and probably also on an A320), b.air should seriously consider this option for a limited number of destinations to Africa in combination with A330 operations in order to increase frequency required to attrack business travelers. Of course, the A321/320 will not offer the same cargo capacity, but since the same levels of comfort can be offered to pax, it is possible to operate the A330 (with more cargo capacity) on certain days and the A321/320 on other days in order to go daily or increase frequency on certain destination or to open new routes more easily (less costly I guess than opening a new destination with an A330 and less costly to acquire) and traffic rights permitting, of course.

Let me be clear : I am not advocating narrow-body aircraft only to Africa, neither a large number of flights on this model to Africa, but American Airlines' A321T model deserves (imho) to be considered for certain flights up to more or less six-hours (perhaps without a First class cabin, although ?).

[Flanker2]

Air Key West, I see what you see.
We might as well start our own airline, because SN would rather die than give it a try.

[cathay belgium]

Why narrowbody to Africa?

Better a two daily service to Kinshasa and/Lubumbashi/Dakar and let Korongo deal with the connections to the smaller african places, with smaller aircraft, a bunch of dash8 ... The flybe of africa...
So they can grow both...
Korongo still plays a minor role and didn't grew last year,...

But as there is no money...
The narrowbody operations to AFI won't be so soon, flying over US isn't the same as Africa as I read in the elder posts of this topic... and BRU isn't IST geographically...

A fuelstop with an a320 will make it less attractive offcourse...

Don't think SN can grew to places where LH,LX is landing for now ...

CXB

[crew1990]

A fuelstop with an a320 will make it less attractive offcourse...

Well there is no need of any fuelstop, in Gambia Bird flies direct from London to Freetown, Banjul en Accra without any problem!

The problem is that with an A330, SN can make some triangular flights, and sell some tick on intra-African flight, for example Dakar-Banjul-Dakar, a narrow body would be to small for such operation I think.

[Flanker2]

Is SN still selling 5th freedom tickets in Africa after the Senegal saga?

[LJ]

Let me be clear : I am not advocating narrow-body aircraft only to Africa, neither a large number of flights on this model to Africa, but American Airlines' A321T model deserves (imho) to be considered for certain flights up to more or less six-hours (perhaps without a First class cabin, although ?).

The AA model has been tried before to Africa. AF did it and axed it, IB is still doing it but isn't expanding it and LH decided to axe its Privatair service to Africa.

[Flanker2]

...and is still being tried successfully by TK, who is expanding it year after year.

Maybe the problem isn't the operating model, but the airlines? Last time I checked, AF, IB aren't the best managed airlines around. So indeed, given SN's track record, maybe it's best to stay away from this operating model.

As for LH... Germans have never been big in black Africa after WWI.

[Inquirer]

Yes, Turkish does it from IST with success, but it's admittedly slightly nearer to Africa and more to the east too, so it will be finding many of the densely populated central African destinations just within range; from BRU it seems it's mostly scarcely populated Sahel countries which fall within the same range.

Other than that, I'd have to sit with Passenger: it's rather naive to just assume Brussels Airlines hasn't spent some time to see just what the real numbers would look like if they'd send one of their A320s to a certain destination over an A330 of theirs. How long would that take to compare the 2 back to back, given they have planning software for those kind of things of course: 5 minutes?

Maybe the numbers are indeed not as compelling as some want them to be, just as those who have tried it have also found out the hard way? At some point, being 'extremely efficient (aka 'right up to the limit') turns into 'just not possible': maybe that point is situated somewhere on the meridian between BRU and IST, flanker.

[Air Key West]

The AA model has been tried before to Africa. AF did it and axed it, IB is still doing it but isn't expanding it and LH decided to axe its Privatair service to Africa.

I have to disagree. The AA model, as far as I know, has nevr been tried to Africa : I don't know of any airline in the past who offered lie-flat seats in C class on a narrow-body to Africa. That's what is new and would be better than the competition (TK for instance)

[Flanker2]

Yes, Turkish does it from IST with success, but it's admittedly slightly nearer to Africa and more to the east too, so it will be finding many of the densely populated central African destinations just within range; from BRU it seems it's mostly scarcely populated Sahel countries which fall within the same range.

You are right, I didn't consider that.
You changed my mind, SN is doing great and should continue to do as it's doing, because I'm sure that someday, they will succeed.

Forget I even discussed this.

[cathay belgium]

Someone is trying with all his being not to be sending away here
Finally he's convinced after all that years
Sorry, really funny after the warning
Let everbody opion be there and just be friendly !
A happy wknd everyone
CXB

[Air Key West]

[cnc]

the A321NEO will be very well suited for this but is this realistic for SN?
an other small subfleet...

[Flanker2]

By fitting ACT's, you can do the same mission with current A321's as you could do in the future with the NEO. But if it doesn't make sense with the current A321, I don't see why it would suddenly make sense with the NEO. The A321NEO isn't available until 2019 anyway.

Most routes are 4000-5000km in still-air great circle distance.
Add wind components, routing, longer diversion and other factors and it seems extremely difficult to operate this route reliably out of BRU.

Also, the galley space for the catering poses a challenge and lack of cargo will most likely kill the profitability.
The necessity to operate a sub-fleet for Africa only would also be painful.

The inability to tanker fuel on the A321 would also add to the cost of the operation.

SN would just be better off continuing the way they are doing it, replacing older A330's by newer A330's as they become available. They have grown as much as they could in Africa, now they will start making money there as the African middle class starts growing and flying to Europe and USA for sightseeing.

[cnc]

if i'm not mistaken both ILF and AA have A321NEO's on schedule for delivery in 2015

[Flanker2]

I believe that the A321 NEO will EIS in Q1 2017 with a delivery in Q4 2016, with ILFC.
Most spots on the lessors' list will be high profile and expensive.
If you want delivery slots for the NEO, you're looking at 2019 with the current backlog. Airbus does have some slots left for high profile customers, but SN isn't exactly a high-profile customer.