BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

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tolipanebas
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by tolipanebas »

Flanker wrote:Are BRU's jet bridges able to accommodate the Q400NG?
Now that is a weird question for sure, if you allow me to say so, given you have been pushing very hard the concept of offering a premium service on a fleet of turboprops for SN in the past! :? :? :?

To the exception of somebody able to point out the contrary, I dare to say it is simply impossible to dock a turboprop at one of the jetbridges in BRU, as I have personally never seen a single turboprop, not even a Q400, here being boarded via a jetbridge, ever.
Last edited by tolipanebas on 03 Aug 2011, 20:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by andorra-airport »

tolipanebas wrote: To the exception of somebody pointing out the contrary, I dare to say it is simply impossible to dock a turboprop at a jetbridge in BRU, as I have personally never seen a single turboprop, not even a Q400, being boarded via a jetbridge, ever.
I remember Austrian Arrows Q400 boarded with a jetbridge @ Schiphol.

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tolipanebas
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by tolipanebas »

It is possible indeed, but not so at BRU, as far as I know. At least I've never seen it done here...

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Yuri166 »

Flanker wrote:The maintenance planning will be different with a turboprop fleet. If the aircraft are new or almost new, they are less prone to technical issues. The nightly daily checks also fade away, leaving no work to be done at night.
:shock:
You will have a LOT of disappointed customers... Maintenance free aircraft simply do not exist. I've worked on brand new, young and old Q400's as on all types of ATR (exept the -600 off coarse), but all of them need daily (nightly) attention. To have them very reliable during the day, you have to take care of them at night, almost every night. New aircraft break down just as easy as old ones. It's just the age related problems you don't have (yet), but that is mostly heavy maintenance anyway. Flying them around the clock will result in AOG's and delayed or cancelled flights.

And to answer the other question, you could dock a skybridge at the rear pax door of a Q400. That is, if the skybridge can reach around the left wing, and get low enough. The foreward pax door is an airstair type door, and the fixed handrails are in the way of docking on a skybridge.

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by euroflyer »

As even the CRJ700s / 900s cannot be boarded in BRU via the skybridges (even if a/c is parked at a skybridge position you have to go down the steps to the tarmac and board the a/c from here) it seems highly unlikely that this would work with any turboprop in BRU.
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

Now that is a weird question for sure, if you allow me to say so, given you have been pushing very hard the concept of offering a premium service on a fleet of turboprops for SN in the past!
I think that it's not that big a drama to passengers.
If anything, incoming Shengen passengers would prefer to park at a remote stand and be bussed directly to somewhere near the baggage claim rather than to take the long, time-consuming walk from terminal A.
If SN thinks that it really needs this, then as a customer, it has the ability to push BRU to take it into account for the extension of the A terminal or even to force a modification to a number of jet bridges, depending on how many turboprops it acquires.
You will have a LOT of disappointed customers... Maintenance free aircraft simply do not exist. I've worked on brand new, young and old Q400's as on all types of ATR (exept the -600 off coarse), but all of them need daily (nightly) attention. To have them very reliable during the day, you have to take care of them at night, almost every night. New aircraft break down just as easy as old ones. It's just the age related problems you don't have (yet), but that is mostly heavy maintenance anyway. Flying them around the clock will result in AOG's and delayed or cancelled flights.
Follow my reasoning.
If SN does operate night charters, the turboprops' daily utilisation will reach a level that would require a 50 hours line check every 3 or 4 days instead of weekly.
Most items that need to be taken care of during the night are small items or MEL items that do not jeopardize operations, so depending on their expiration, they can wait until the next line check maximum 3 days away or a spare aircraft can be dispatched.

My proposed schedule also allows for 120 minutes of ground time between 04:30 and 06:30 every morning. In principle that's sufficient time to take care of most minor issues and depending on tasks to be done and available resources, to even do a complete line check.
Depending on the size of the turboprop fleet, I don't see the entire fleet doing night charters everyday. I would already be happy if they start with 3 or 4 destinations and eventually get to around 10 or 15 (supposing that the turboprop fleet would exceed 20 aircraft). This leaves sufficient amounts of spare aircraft for eventual swaps.

The dispatch reliability on newer generation aircraft isn't comparable to what Avro's have. The Avro's are good aircraft but everytime they need repairs, they require a lot more troubleshooting and resources.
As they age, aircraft structural issues in heavy maintenance increase but other issues increase even more. More parts get closer to the end of their life cycle and for instance all systems containing fluid and electrical elements become more prone to leaks, short-circuits or broken elements.

I don't know the Q400's and ATR72's very well, but as you do, perhaps you could share some technical information regarding reliability and typical issues? Some input on the engines and centralized diagnostic system would also be interesting.

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Kapitein »

tolipanebas wrote:
Flanker wrote:Are BRU's jet bridges able to accommodate the Q400NG?
Now that is a weird question for sure, if you allow me to say so, given you have been pushing very hard the concept of offering a premium service on a fleet of turboprops for SN in the past! :? :? :?

To the exception of somebody able to point out the contrary, I dare to say it is simply impossible to dock a turboprop at one of the jetbridges in BRU, as I have personally never seen a single turboprop, not even a Q400, here being boarded via a jetbridge, ever.
It's indeed impossible to dock the Q400/F50/ERJ145's with the noseloaders. But as mentioned above they can use the stand and pax can walk to the building. And it will never be possible due to safetyissues with the boardingbridges we have now. Maybe in the future yes, but not now.

Flanker fyi, the SN pax that are coming from a schengen destination on the remote are disembarked at R4 wich is not near the bagagereclaim. They still have to walk a reasonable distance from Pier A to de bagagereclaim.

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

Flanker fyi, the SN pax that are coming from a schengen destination on the remote are disembarked at R4 wich is not near the bagagereclaim. They still have to walk a reasonable distance from Pier A to de bagagereclaim.
Indeed, it's been like that since years. I wonder when SN is going to have a serious conversation with the airport about that. How hard can it be to make the bus unload the passengers at the end of the tunnel?

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Stij »

Flanker wrote:
Flanker fyi, the SN pax that are coming from a schengen destination on the remote are disembarked at R4 wich is not near the bagagereclaim. They still have to walk a reasonable distance from Pier A to de bagagereclaim.
Indeed, it's been like that since years. I wonder when SN is going to have a serious conversation with the airport about that. How hard can it be to make the bus unload the passengers at the end of the tunnel?
Maybe, just maybe, because SN asked the handling company to do this because of... Schengen transfer passengers...

When we're parked remote in the late evening (when no connections are available anymore) I'm always dropped at the main terminal.

Cheers,

Stij

P.S. Didn't we discuss this before?

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by euroflyer »

Flanker wrote:How hard can it be to make the bus unload the passengers at the end of the tunnel?
How much would schengen connecting pax like this? They would need to go through security again to arrive at their departure gate :? not very convenient :roll:
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

How much would schengen connecting pax like this? They would need to go through security again to arrive at their departure gate not very convenient
I don't think that that's a very intelligent approach (and indeed, it seems to be the SN/BRU approach).
The convenience of 5% of the pax isn't worth the inconvenience of 95% of the pax.
If those 5% are really that important, all it takes is an additional stop of the bus at the A terminal or a drop off point at the end of the tunnel coming from terminal A that is still before security.
That's if it doesn't already exist but I'm sure that there is some kind of exit in that area.

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by euroflyer »

Flanker wrote:The convenience of 5% of the pax isn't worth the inconvenience of 95% of the pax.
Unfortunately it is quite likely that tose 5% are the ones in business paying for half of the revenue ...
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

Many economic media outlets are now talking about a new recession and economic collapse. Others are talking about a depression that was temporarily paused by quantitative easing by the U.S. Fed.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ti ... lld21vcmU-

Markets entered a sell-off today, oil lost 5% and volatility is high. Today, stocks of EADS and Lufthansa lost around 6%, AF/KL lost over 8%.
This kind of sell-off hasn't been seen since the September 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers.

Tough times for airline managements who have to make important decisions amid very volatile markets. If we enter a new crisis, one has to question if this is the right time to phase out the Avro's in favor of turboprops.
It's also unclear what kind of crisis this may be. It could be one led by hyperinflation, due to the debt crisis in the EU and the US, in which case oil prices will stay high and could go higher while currencies fall.

If hyperinflation hits, the turboprops can make a huge difference. If it's a typical financial meltdown, including a collapse in oil and fuel prices, then cost containment would be key and the cheap leases on the Avro's would be a huge relief for the airline.

We're not there yet, but if no deal has been reached yet, given that the turboprop backlog isn't likely to increase by much in the coming months, I hope that SN's management adopt a wait-and-see strategy in the coming weeks and months.

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

So, nice to see my remark of an unstable ecomomy and a look/guess into the future finally
made sense.. :)
Maybe my english and aviation-skills couldn't equal yours but at least I didn't forgot that markets and
economics/events can change very fast during the nowadays state of ecomics.
And this isn't gonna change soon .. coming crisisses are already formed, ..

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New types flown 2024 : DO228, A338 , PC6

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by BrusselsAirlines »

Indeed, dropping fuel prices could change the Avro phase out strategy.

Crazy times...the economical rebounce of (very) short term ending??

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by BrusselsAirlines »

BTW - it's even better not to use the bridge on acft like the dash and CRJ's.

Look at Lufthansa strategy, just before boarding you leave your trolly at the entrance, and after flight you get it back at the acft door. Works perfectly. Look at Munich where all the CRJ etc are on remote and served by bus - works perfect - always on time and never waiting at the belt - exactly what everybody likes :)

...and less walking...time is money or should it now be 'time was money'...

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Yuri166 »

Flanker wrote:Follow my reasoning.
If SN does operate night charters, the turboprops' daily utilisation will reach a level that would require a 50 hours line check every 3 or 4 days instead of weekly.
Most items that need to be taken care of during the night are small items or MEL items that do not jeopardize operations, so depending on their expiration, they can wait until the next line check maximum 3 days away or a spare aircraft can be dispatched.
A Line check every couple of days is not the problem, that is a gloriyfied daily check anyway. But there are more things like wheel and brake replacements, out of phase maintenance tasks, A-checks, troubleshooting problerms, cabin maintenance, prop balancing, etc... You need sufficient downtime. Problem with having spare aircraft in a stressed fleet is that they are probably scheduled for maintenance should they be available for a night. So you will have none in case of a problem on another one, or postpone the maintenance on the available aircraft, but that is not an option if you can't have it available the next night due to the busy schedule. The next night another plane will be scheduled for much needed maintenance, so the conflict continues untill you can't get around it anymore, and aircraft are grounded.
Flanker wrote:My proposed schedule also allows for 120 minutes of ground time between 04:30 and 06:30 every morning. In principle that's sufficient time to take care of most minor issues and depending on tasks to be done and available resources, to even do a complete line check.
04:30 till 06:30...? That is the worst time to have an aircraft avaliable for mx. The shiftchange is at 6, so, assuming the aircraft comes in on time, which is not certain at all, a delay earlier in the day may cascade till the end of the flight day, and in this case even de next day if the delay is severe enough, but if it comes in on time, you are looking at effectively 30 minutes till 1 hour max downtime for mx. A day!, that will not work. Sometimes just getting access to places for maintenance or troubleshooting takes longer then that, and then the work has to be done as well. Troubleshooting a single problem may drag for days with such short availability, and if the cause then eventually is found, you still need time to get the parts should they not be in store. So, be realistic, stressing a fleet like that will eventually backfire, especially the first year or two, when the maintenance organisation is gaining experience on type.
Flanker wrote:Depending on the size of the turboprop fleet, I don't see the entire fleet doing night charters everyday. I would already be happy if they start with 3 or 4 destinations and eventually get to around 10 or 15 (supposing that the turboprop fleet would exceed 20 aircraft). This leaves sufficient amounts of spare aircraft for eventual swaps.
I've read the discussion on that issue, and I am not getting into it. I don't have a vision or a theory. But I do know what the SN management has announced, and isn't their vision the one that counts? Anyway, what they announced suggests only a limited number of turboprops, so lets stick to that. Schreiner Airways operated a maximum of 8 turboprops at one point for Sabena, so lets see that as realistic.
So with some of them on night charters, and some of them at normal scheduled nightstops, you may see one or two a night. That is not a wise strategy with respect to maintenance.
Flanker wrote:The dispatch reliability on newer generation aircraft isn't comparable to what Avro's have. The Avro's are good aircraft but everytime they need repairs, they require a lot more troubleshooting and resources.
As they age, aircraft structural issues in heavy maintenance increase but other issues increase even more. More parts get closer to the end of their life cycle and for instance all systems containing fluid and electrical elements become more prone to leaks, short-circuits or broken elements.
I don't think the (operational) reliability of the Avro's is all that bad. It is not magically going to improve just because another aircraft is of a newer generation. New generation brings new problems. With all digital systems, a bad ground, or a resistance at a dirty connector is going to trigger faults that can ground the aircraft. A new aircraft will break down just as easy as an older one, don't be fooled. It's just the age related problems that you get rid of. But that is because the aircraft is new, not because it is a new generation. And also note that a part or a component is most reliable when it is mid-life, not when it is new.
Flanker wrote:I don't know the Q400's and ATR72's very well, but as you do, perhaps you could share some technical information regarding reliability and typical issues? Some input on the engines and centralized diagnostic system would also be interesting.
Both are good machines. And when well maintained, the reliability is more or less equal I think. But, I do think that if the maintenance is a bit less, which would be inevitable in a stressed fleet, the ATR will let you down sooner.
Both have strongpoints, the Q400 has a brilliant electrical system, and also the flightcontrol system is very well thought through. But those are equalled by the ATR's hydraulic and landing gear systems. Weaker points... Well, the ATR's airco system is a bit under rated, and often give problems, also I don't like to fly the ATR when there is turbulence, I allways get sick. I think the smaller tail makes it a bit less stable as the Q400. The Q400 on the other hand doesn't really have a system that is underrated. All is well in that respect. But it does seem to want to tailstrike easily. And I don't mean the SAS aircraft. That problem is solved by the way...
Both engines are pretty much bulletproof. The PW127 for the ATR, and the PW150 for the Q400. Needless to say the latter one is the more powerfull. Also the propellers are both of good design. The Hamilton prop of the ATR is a bit easier to work on, and pretty quiet due to the small diameter. The Q400's Dowty prop gives some more options to the pilots, but both are equal in my opinion.
CDS...? Well, the CDS on the Q400 is pretty advanced, and gives you a lot of information, including probable causes, backed up with statistics. The CDS on the ATR is very primitive. At least, up to the -500. Hopefully that is an area where they improved on the -600, but it being on the same maintenance type rating as the -500 does not suggest very big differences.

Which one I would prefer? Well, I like em both, so either would be fine by me. But since I am a huge fan of the classic dash, and that pedigree shows a lot in the Q400, I'll have that one please...

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by BrusselsAirlines »

Rumour says at least 8 TP are heading for Brussels.

Seems logic if most of 737 & RJ85 are leaving - something's gotta replace!

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

I don't think the (operational) reliability of the Avro's is all that bad. It is not magically going to improve just because another aircraft is of a newer generation. New generation brings new problems. With all digital systems, a bad ground, or a resistance at a dirty connector is going to trigger faults that can ground the aircraft. A new aircraft will break down just as easy as an older one, don't be fooled. It's just the age related problems that you get rid of. But that is because the aircraft is new, not because it is a new generation. And also note that a part or a component is most reliable when it is mid-life, not when it is new.
It's not bad because they're used in a low utilization program, so we don't see delays or cancellations because there's always or almost always an aircraft to swap. However, they require much more work than the A32S and even the Classics. The engines are sensitive and need regular swaps. Having 4 of them gives twice as many reasons to change them. Many preventive engine changes are being done and their amount just don't compare with the CFM's.
The digital generation indeed has its share of problems but they're not frequent and can usually be fixed during the A-checks or on the line with a LRU swap.
A new aircraft will break down just as easy as an older one, don't be fooled. It's just the age related problems that you get rid of. But that is because the aircraft is new, not because it is a new generation. And also note that a part or a component is most reliable when it is mid-life, not when it is new.
The age and philosophy related problems are the biggest problems. The older the aircraft, the more they deviate from their original configuration. There are the natural deviations caused by vibrations and movements and there are deviations caused by maintenance. These deviations cause problems with electrical wiring, hydraulic/bleed/water systems/oxygen/fuel systems and structural, the typical day to day issues.
The most you fix on a new airplane is an occasional LRU swap, a software fault or minor manufacturing errors.
Newer generation aircraft are also better thought-out for maintenance and avoid accessibility problems on zones that need regular attention.
Sometimes just getting access to places for maintenance or troubleshooting takes longer then that, and then the work has to be done as well. Troubleshooting a single problem may drag for days with such short availability, and if the cause then eventually is found, you still need time to get the parts should they not be in store. So, be realistic, stressing a fleet like that will eventually backfire, especially the first year or two, when the maintenance organisation is gaining experience on type.
The Avro's have too many accessibility problems and many too sensitive systems that vacuum time and resources, a result of excessive haste by British Aerospace to get the aircraft certified during the design stage.
Look at the Airbus, most systems are accessible in the turn of a few quick-locks.

If you can't defer an item, you tow the aircraft to the hangar and use a spare aircraft.
Example of what happens if a night charter goes tech before departure.
Aircraft "A" 22:30 scheduled to fly to Bastia, Corsica. Problem discovered, grounded.
Spare aircraft "B" activated, departs 23:00 to Bastia. Takes over the schedule from aircraft "A".
Aircraft "A" fixed between 23:00 and 06:00 to serve as the new spare aircraft, "B" continues flying through the day.

I don't doubt for a moment that the turboprops are capable of operating in such a high-efficiency scheme but I'm far from sure that SN can handle it organisation-wise, at least for sure not under its current structure.

Southwest Airlines achieve a 12.5 hours average daily utilization. Feel free to compare with SN's statistics accessible to all SN staff and you'll see what I mean by low efficiency operation. The problem isn't aircraft maintenance ground time but rather a lot of parking and too many aircraft to operate a light schedule. It's good for operational on-time departure statistics, but it's a hole in the wallet.
So, be realistic, stressing a fleet like that will eventually backfire, especially the first year or two, when the maintenance organisation is gaining experience on type.
It depends on how it's done. If there's always the comfort of 2 spare aircraft while all the other aircraft are either on scheduled maintenance or flying like there's no tomorrow, then it would be fine.
04:30 till 06:30...? That is the worst time to have an aircraft avaliable for mx. The shiftchange is at 6, so, assuming the aircraft comes in on time, which is not certain at all, a delay earlier in the day may cascade till the end of the flight day, and in this case even de next day if the delay is severe enough, but if it comes in on time, you are looking at effectively 30 minutes till 1 hour max downtime for mx. A day!
It doesn't matter because aircraft only need attention if something arises. On the turboprops, you don't even need a daily check. The most you would have is an item that needs to be deferred and otherwise you can activate one of the spare aircraft and immediately start repairing the grounded aircraft to make it ready to act as spare aircraft.

The larger the fleet, the more spares you can have.
If at any given time, SN has 30 turboprops, it can easily have 2 spares and 2 in heavy maintenance.
Line and A checks can be scheduled every 3 to 4 days at night. The night mx program would look like this:
8 aircraft on line check,
1 in A check
2 spares
2 in heavy maintenance
remaining 17 aircraft flying night charters.

Even in a 15 aircraft fleet you can do the same with 4/1/1/1/8, but then it gets riskier on the spare aircraft, so I would reduce the night flight charter potential to 6 or 7 to have additional breathing room.
A Line check every couple of days is not the problem, that is a gloriyfied daily check anyway. But there are more things like wheel and brake replacements, out of phase maintenance tasks, A-checks, troubleshooting problerms, cabin maintenance, prop balancing, etc..
All mentioned tasks can be done in the 3-daily, nightly line checks. You can put as many tasks as you want in the line check, as long as there's no single task that takes more than 7 hours. Even then, you can still use a spare aircraft or if it's not possible, you can weigh a delay, because making money is just as important as flying on-time.
Given the resources freed by the maintenance-friendlier design and absence of daily checks, those resources can be used to aggressively attack the aircraft on every nightly line check or when an aircraft goes tech and a spare is activated.



Interesting comparison ATR72/Q400.

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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by azingrew »

There is an interesting and animated thread on the " avoidance of the american public of TP" on airliners.net. Lots of pros and cons ( monstly con though). A few guys raise the subject of the perception the general public has on TP's and it confirms what I said somewhere here above: In my experience as a former travel agent, I can guarantie you that the general public does not like TP's and some people would even go to great length to avoid them. Propeller are often associated with "old" no matter how modern they are.
Many people would rather sit on a ratling 737-200 rather than a new TP. It might be absurd, but that's what it is.
Just a quick quote from someone on the airliners thread which I found interesting:
"Tprops are cheaper is a very broad statement If you mean operationally, then yes on shorter routes less than 500nm as a baseline, they are usually cheaper to operate than an RJ because they burn less fuel and the stage length time on such a short flight is negligible between the Q400/ATR-72, etc vs. the Rj. But when you start going past that range, the savings are negligible because of the slower cruise speed of a tprop."

So, to sum it up, my thoughts on a massive TP order at SN is that it ain't gonna happen.

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