The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

[brusselsairlinesfan]

Oh my God... a 747 (300 or 400 series, any info?) in the full brussels airlines colour scheme would be amazing!!!

[JoskeDR]

First see, then think guyz...
747 at B.Air? ONLY RUMORS!!!

[euroflyer]

Oh my God... a 747 (300 or 400 series, any info?) in the full brussels airlines colour scheme would be amazing!!!

LH only has -400 as far as I am aware. And no Combi's. They certainly would not like to have another type in "their" fleet.

It might just be rumours, but that is what a forum is all about, isn't it

[taz001]

First see, then think guyz...
747 at B.Air? ONLY RUMORS!!!

Some Brussels Airlines' crew tell will receive a conversion course for B747-400. If it's not true, than it's a bad joke.

[Prevangor]

And no Combi's.

Only true at first glance. Originally, 7 frames D-ABTA..F+H have been built and deliverd as 747-430M. They have been flying around in all-passenger configurations for some years now, but actually they are combis.

[euroflyer]

And no Combi's.

Only true at first glance. Originally, 7 frames D-ABTA..F+H have been built and deliverd as 747-430M. They have been flying around in all-passenger configurations for some years now, but actually they are combis.

OK, thanks for that info; I was not aware of this ... but would it be possible to re-convert them easily to a Combi version?

So far I only had the pleasure to sit in D-ABVT

[outofafrica]

And no Combi's.

Only true at first glance. Originally, 7 frames D-ABTA..F+H have been built and deliverd as 747-430M. They have been flying around in all-passenger configurations for some years now, but actually they are combis.

OK, thanks for that info; I was not aware of this ... but would it be possible to re-convert them easily to a Combi version?
so far I only had the pleasure to sit in D-ABVT

In that case SN could use quite a few of those COMBI's, they can accomodate the same number of pax (280) as A333 but almost double the amount of cargo / flight. This is not only interesting for FIH but also for all the other destinations especially NBO/EBB/KGL/BJM

[JoskeDR]

i hear people talking about their upcoming upgrade for the new A380... sorry but this is just a rumour, and until management decides to share info on this 'possibility' it will remain a rumour...
Don't get your hopes up too much people

[sn-remember]

I am (very) doubtful about SN ever acquiring the 747 (Combi version).
To me they will focus on increasing frequencies rather than capacity on flights to Africa.
Hopefully opening new destinations like Lagos, Accra, Lome ...
In this optic, the A330 type should continue to serve them well.
I would bet on a mixed fleet of A330-200's and A330-300's, possibly all A330-300's

[HighInTheSky]

Did the EU give their OK already?

[euroflyer]

Did the EU give their OK already?

I would be surprised if they would be that fast However, in todays economic situation in which smaller stand-alone airlines will face a much tougher environment than just a few months ago I would expect them to be less critical about this takeover, We might expect them requiring a few slots to be passed in FRA, MUC or TXL to a competitor (Air Berlin?) so they can offer two or three flights a day to BRU as well, but I guess that will be all. But lets see ...

[Boeing767copilot]

On wednesday there is a general meeting from Star Alliance in ORD. Will they make an annoucement about BRU AIR as a new member?

[Conti764]

Maybe a quick option for SN for the flights to FIH:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Cana ... 1455079/L/

This way, one A333 can be made available for new African destinations or more frequencies...

[Atlantis]

Maybe a quick option for SN for the flights to FIH:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Cana ... 1455079/L/

This way, one A333 can be made available for new African destinations or more frequencies...

I think that nowadays more then one aircraft is available from different operators

[tolipanebas]

Indeed.

At the beginning of this year, SN looked at diffent A330s to expand in AFI, but finally decided against taking a 5th plane in the light of the ever increasing fuel prices, the economic slow down and the lease rate which was around on average 900,000 dollars....

Now, less than a year later, the average lease rate of an A330 is at 500,000 dollars, not to mention the fact that fuel prices have sunk to levels not seen for several years...

Let's just say that 2009 seems to be a good moment to add some capacity to the long haul network, shall we?

[euroflyer]

Indeed.

At the beginning of this year, SN looked at diffent A330s to expand in AFI, but finally decided against taking a 5th plane in the light of the ever increasing fuel prices, the economic slow down and the lease rate which was around on average 900,000 dollars....

Now, less than a year later, the average lease rate of an A330 is at 500,000 dollars, not to mention the fact that fuel prices have sunk to levels not seen for several years...

Let's just say that 2009 seems to be a good moment to add some capacity to the long haul network, shall we?

Well, that is the problem with a market economcy

If (nearly) nobody wants to fly and airlines need less aircrafts and fuel, both are relatively cheap. But it will be hard to make money than even with those cheaper aircrafts, because - ah yes - (nearly) nobody wants to fly anmore ...

However, if you have a special niche in the market which still shows strong demand and you predict it to continue to do so, this is the right time to invest, but I am not sure if this is really the case for Brussels Airlines long-haul operations or if it is just the hope of many here in the forum

[Conti764]

However, if you have a special niche in the market which still shows strong demand and you predict it to continue to do so, this is the right time to invest, but I am not sure if this is really the case for Brussels Airlines long-haul operations or if it is just the hope of many here in the forum

What about necessity? In order to grow, SN needs more capacity to its main market, Africa. A 343 could do well on the BRU-FIH-BRU rotation.

Now I don't know how leasing in aviation works, but I assume it's roughly the same way as when you lease a car. Given the high loads on the BRU-FIH market it doesn't seem to hard to fill enough seats to cover all the costs which include the leasing price for a 343? It's not like to have to buy one...

[Megaman]

When you buy a car, you need to depreciate it. When you lease a car, you need to pay rent.

I have no idea which is cheapest and this probably varies based on demand, but I wouldn't be surprised if leasing a plane would cost more given that it's more flexible than buying the plane and I guess that you pay for this flexibility.

[Conti764]

When you buy a car, you need to depreciate it. When you lease a car, you need to pay rent.

I have no idea which is cheapest and this probably varies based on demand, but I wouldn't be surprised if leasing a plane would cost more given that it's more flexible than buying the plane and I guess that you pay for this flexibility.

Yes, but then again, planes have to be available for purchase, while many current operators would choose to lease out their planes. And to ad to that, SN doesn't have the money to buy a plane, so they'd have to get a loan and I don't know if SN can give the guarantees to a bank to obtain an over €100M loan.

In better financial times they could say "We have such loads with such an income over an extended period so operating this plane is worthy the investment and pays of the purchase of the plane." But in these uncertain times, getting money is not so easy while SN needs (or can use) the investment as soon as possible.

[Air Key West]

My analysis of the situation can be wrong, but here it is for what it's worth (sorry for LG-LXG) : the airline's top (board + management) have no vision, no ambition and no expertise when it come to long haul flights.
When you hear top management say, a few days ago, to a Le Soir journalist : "we are waiting for potential African partners to expand in Africa", it is obvious they have not understood what it's all about. There is no potential African partner and there will probably never be one (the only serious one could be ET). The airline has been kept alive thanks to its African flights which make apparently considerable profits since they keep the budget in balance with European flights loosing money.
Of course, with the financial crisis, everybody is extremely cautious and there are not many banks willing to give credit, even for a low risk investment. The problem may be to find the money (the bank willing to extend credit) to pay for the leasing of one or two additional long haul planes. However, it seems to me that once you lease of plane, you will be loosing some money in the beginning, which is normal in terms of investment, but after a few months you will get your return on investment. I'm quite sure there are enough planes for lease at reasonable prices at this period of crisis (it's probably the best time to buy or lease). So, with b.air just breaking even this year, will there be a will from the current investors ((including LH) to let the airline go into the red for a few months in order to make more profits thereafter and mop up the debts of the previous months ? It's not only, but also a question of ambition and guts.